State Funeral

[bigr]

There must be some mistake. Are we talking about Ronald Reagan, the former American president who just had a funeral? Are we talking about the same Ronald Reagan who considered The Taliban "liberators" in the 1980s? Are we talking about the same Ronald Reagan who threw support and money towards Afghanistan Islamic fundamentalists who rolled out the red carpet for Al Qaeda and Osama, who . . . well, you know the rest of the story.

Are we talking about the same Ronald Reagan who is quoted as saying Nelson Mandela was a terrorist? (For those of you that don't know, Mandela is one of the main figures in the end of apartheid in South Africa, and has since received a Nobel Peace Prize for his work)

Are we talking about the same Ronald Reagan who fired thousands of PATCO Air Traffic Controllers and left the entire aviation industry in chaos all because they wanted better benefits and better equipment for a failing ATC system?

It's fine to pay respects, but let's not revise history so we can feel good about everyone that dies.

jesus...our educational system is a shambles!!!

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

how's this aviation related? just because he fired the controllers?

 

[ArcticFlier]

The Taliban and the Soviet Union...............


First off, it wasn't the Taliban that fought the Soviets. It was the people of Afghanistan that fought the Soviets. More specifically, the Mujahadeen. A buddy of mine fought with them. He's got some stories that would raise hairs on the back of your head. Who did we choose to support in this fight? The invaders or the invaded? It was a means to once again thwart Communism's attempt at gaining a foothold elsewhere. Is that a good thing or not? They fought one hell of a fight, and won, driving the Soviets back across the border. We supported that. Was that a bad thing to do?



Here's some more education for you:



"False myths of Afghanistan

• The Taliban are the government of Afghanistan. False: all countries in the world but one (Pakistan) recognize the old government of Afghanistan, the one that was overthrown by the Taliban. The United Nations seat for Afghanistan is still held by a representative of that government. The Northern Alliance that is fighting the Taliban inside Afghanistan is related to the old government (it also includes other groups).
• "Taliban" is a word that stands for "Afghan". False: a "talib" is a religious student, and "taliban" is simply the plural of "talib". The taliban are all religious students who study in madras (Islamic schools). This group came to be called "Taliban" because they originated from Pakistani madras and were the most orthodox among the religious fighters in Afghanistan.
• The Afghans are Arabs. False: the Afghans are closer to Iran (most speak the language of Iran, farsi) and have a completely different history (they even used to be a sanctaury for Buddhism). The Arabs currently fighting with the Taliban were brought to Afghanistan by the USA, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to fight the Soviet Union.
• The population of Afghanistan supports the Taliban. False: the Afghan population may have supported them at the beginning, when they promised to bring to an end the civil war that followed the withdrawal of Soviet troops, but many years of dictatorship, crazy laws, torture, killings, extermination have alienated even their own ethnic group. And Afghanistan has many minorities, from shiites to Tajiks, that have been persecuted by the Taliban and are actively fighting them (as part of the Northern Alliance). Literate women who are now reduced to the status of animals have formed a secret resistance.
• Osama Bin Laden is a Talib. False: first of all Osama bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia and he actually arrived way before the Taliban were even born. He was among the first Arab volunteers recruited by the US to fight against the Soviet Union. The Taliban arrived a decade later, when OSama Bin Laden and the other volunteers had already kicked the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan. Osama Bin Laden has certainly helped the Taliban and the Taliban are protecting him, but he has never been part of the Taliban army. Ditto for the Brigade 55, which is made of Arab volunteers more or less reporting to Osama Bin Laden.
• Osama Bin Laden's organization Al Qaeda is based in Afghanistan. False: Osama Bin Laden may be in Afghanistan, but his organization is spread around the world, with strong financial centers in Europe and the US and operatives in as many as 60 countries.
• Osama Bin Laden's men are Afghans. False: Osama Bin Laden has recruited Muslims from all over the world. His deputy is Egyptian. The attack in New York was carried out by Lebanese, Algerian, Saudi and Moroccan men. One of those men was even a French citizen.
• The terrorists that attacked America on September 11, 2001 were Afghan. False: none of them was Afghan. They were from different Muslim countries.
• Many of the most wanted terrorists in the world are Afghan. False: there isn't a single Afghan national in the list of America's most wanted terrorists. "

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. I suppose it depends on how you look at it. He was inciting riots, not protests, but riots, in a country that had NO free speech rights for anyone, much less a black man. Is that wrong? Absolutely. But it may have been way more effective to do what Martin Luther King did. Work within the law to effect change. Did Mandela try that first? I don't know. Ask him.



Regarding the PATCO strike, here's a little something for you to read: It's by Stanley Kurtz........



"Reagan had cut his political teeth as president of the Screen Actors Guild. As a union man, he had genuine sympathy for strikers — and for the right to strike. And PATCO (the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization) was one of the few unions that supported Reagan's presidential bid. No one denied that the controllers had an unusually stressful job, and one that was absolutely essential to the economy. So Reagan had every reason to work with PATCO when it asked for a raise.

Reagan offered an 11-percent wage increase — significant during a period of budget cuts — but PATCO would settle for nothing less than a 100-percent raise. The union knew Reagan's sympathies, knew it had endorsed his presidential bid, and knew that a strike would likely paralyze the economy. National security was also at stake, since the network of American bombers ready to head for the Soviet Union at the hint of a nuclear attack depended on the controllers.

THE WORLD WAS WATCHING

Of course, that's why critical federal employees like air-traffic controllers aren't allowed to strike. Every PATCO member had signed a sworn affidavit agreeing not to strike, and Reagan had made it clear to the controllers that under no circumstances would he accept an illegal strike. PATCO thought he was bluffing, so with the economy hanging in the balance, 70 percent of the controllers walked out.

Reagan scrambled to put together a working air-traffic-control system. Between the Federal Aviation Administration, the Defense Department, private controllers, and the non-striking PATCO employees, a system was created that kept military and civilian aircraft aloft. When Canadian controllers shut down Gander Airport in sympathy with PATCO, the president authorized Transportation Secretary Drew Lewis to tell them to open the airport, or the United States would never land there again. The Canadians folded. The French made threatening noises, but the British stuck by the United States. In the meantime, Reagan worked behind the scenes, with Ted Kennedy and AFL-CIO president Lane Kirkland, to make sure the Democrats didn't turn the strike into a partisan issue. Both Kirkland and Kennedy thought that PATCO's demand for a 100 percent raise was out of line. They agreed not to go beyond a bit of public grumbling.

So the president bit the bullet and fired the striking controllers. That set the tone for labor negotiations with national, and even municipal, governments for years to come. More important, the whole world was watching Regan's conduct during the strike. This was obviously a man who would hang tough under pressure, and risk serious costs to back up a decision he believed to be necessary and right. The Soviet's took note."



You and your ilk are the ones trying to revise history, but that's okay. There are those of us who will set you straight.





AF

 

[ArcticFlier]

Btw

Datafox,

I tried to edit my above post, but I timed out.

An addendum...........It wasn't President Reagan that 'left the entire aviation industry in chaos' as you put it. It was the 11,000 or so controllers who walked out on their jobs illegally.

AF

 

[ArcticFlier]

And Another Thing..............

Who defeated the Soviet Union without firing a single shot?

Let me know when you figure it out.



AF

 

[dashtrash]

Datafox is a coward.

 

[ArcticFlier]

One More Thing...........

Who cut the highest marginal tax rates from 70% to 28%, thereby increasing revenues to the Treasury?

Let me know when you figure this out! Here's a hint........it's called the Laffer Curve.


AF

 

[skydash]

Reagan

Superb reply Mr. Artic Flier. God forbid we let the facts get in the way of "history."

 

[datafox]

>Who defeated the Soviet Union without firing a single shot?
>
>Let me know when you figure it out.

Two answers to your question:

#1. The Soviets defeated themselves. "Gorbbie" had to change, as the USSR downfall began in the 1960s with ridiculous defense spending and economic policies. Reagan or no Reagan, revolutions usually occur from within...and the Soviet capitalist revolution was no exception.

#2. During the Reagan administration we tended to give support to brutal murderous dictators rather than even think about Soviet influence. Whether it be Central America, Angola or Afghanistan we supported contras, the Mujahadeen (fundamentalists, who advocated an Islamic State)...it really didn't matter, as long as they weren't communists. Collectively, millions of people died, along with plenty of missionaries. Without firing a shot? Hardly. Go down to Central America one of these days get a "feel" for the opinion of Reagan...I guarantee you it won't be positive.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I'd take the USSR over fundamentalist Islam any day of the week.

Good actor, bad president.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Anyway...

As TonyC said, POLITICAL LEANINGS ASIDE... (can't anyone do that?) I thought the entire day was an impressive show of tradition, respect, dignity and honor appropriate to the stature of a US President. As I watched throughout the day, I couldn't help but find sadness in the way so many things have changed in our country and world in the last 15 years. Then I thought about how many things have changed for the better in the last 15 years. Then I thought about how many things could still be improved (and will be). Political leanings aside, one can't say Ronald Reagan wasn't an optimist. I think he'd still be one today.

And then I kept imagining Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day (shudder).