startup

[Terp737]

Thought I would throw this out there for you experts. A friend of mine with some connections told me about a corporation that is considering getting a jet for traveling. Not sure how serious they are, nor exactly what they are looking for, but my guess is they will want to be able to carry 10+ pax and be able to go international. I would also assume that this would be ther first of several acft. I have no part 91 experience and little knowledge of civilian acft (except Beech 400 and BBJ). How difficult would it be to start/run a flight operation? It sounds painful. Are there companies out there that will do all of the initial stuff setting up maintenance contracts, etc.? Also, how much should a job like this pay and how many pilots would probably be needed per acft, etc. Any thoughts would be appreciated as I was pretty set to go down the commercial world path, but I would hate to say no to a great opportunity.
Thanks.

 

[Groundpounder]

I think it would be impossible for you to go this alone. There are alot of people out there that are consultants that help people with setting up new flight departments, and I'm pretty sure if you were to go buy a brand new G550 the people at Gulfstream could help you, or at least point you in the right direction.

 

[f-5]

simple..find exactly what their flight missions will be, miles between and the # of pax per trip, then find out their budget. This will be expensive.

 

[CutEmUp]

I cant imagine that they would need to go international with 10 pax that often. That being said, you might want to look at a charter/managment company that you can get a leaseback deal with. 135 ops will greatly help offset costs. You could just use this as a stepping stone to a full pt 91 op.

 

[Globalflyer]

All of the above opinions are valid. There's really not any correct answer. And yes, aircraft are expensive. But it's not about what it costs as much as it is what the users receive in exchange for those costs.

To answer your original question. It's not terribly difficult to start up a Part 91 operation. Have set up several, including one overseas. You need to be well organized and able to make decisions without a lot of input from the principals. In general, you'll get some basic marching orders and that's it. From there on, you will be largely on your own and will need to be willing and able to explain and justify every decision and action in terms they can understand. Depending on the specifics of the situation, a flight operation can be set up and running on a rudimentary level in as little as two weeks. But plan on 3-6 months to take care of about 80-90% of the detail work that will follow.

Many people will say that a management company is best equipped to set up a flight operation. Management companies have been in vogue for about 15 years now with the first one having come into existence in the early 1960's. Ever wonder how so many fine departments were established prior to the 1990's? Contrary to their proponents, it's not rocket science.

If this is a real situation, you may be well advised to at least investigate it enough to determine if it is within your capabilities.

Feel free to PM me if you would like to talk more.

 

[LRvsH25B]

That being said, you might want to look at a charter/managment company that you can get a leaseback deal with. 135 ops will greatly help offset costs.

You might get some assistance with a fraction of the MX, but let's not say that 135 will greatly help offset costs. That is just not true and too many people in this guys situation have learned that lesson the hard way. Are you a slaesman? In order for an owner to see substantial offsets, the aircraft would have to be too busy for the owner to fly it. Just beinging an aircraft into 135 compliance is expensive. If you cannot afford to let it sit and bring in no income from charter revenue, you cannot afford it.

 

[Terp737]

thanks for the responses. My guess is that they would not want to do 135 ops. Anyone know about what it would cost for a GV and what it would cost roughly to operate (maintenance, fuel, storage, etc.)?

 

[CutEmUp]

I guess "greatly" would be an overstatement. However, going from no airplane or flight department to a GV is a big step.

Has this company ever used private aircraft before to truly realize its convenience and time savings? Your time has to be worth a LOT in order to justify a flight department such as this.

 

[Publishers]

They should buy a block of charter hours first, see how it goes, and make purchase decisions after some experience level has been achieved.

 

[Learsforsale]

thanks for the responses. My guess is that they would not want to do 135 ops. Anyone know about what it would cost for a GV and what it would cost roughly to operate (maintenance, fuel, storage, etc.)?

How many hours per year?
Where would the aircraft be based?
Destinations?

 

[Terp737]

best guess would be flying stateside most of the time with some overseas stuff. Hard to say since I haven't been involved yet (other than info from a friend who knows them), but I would guess they would do several stateside O&Bs per week and maybe 1 overseas trip per month with the capability of reaching the far east (Hong Kong?). Probably based in the dc/md area. I'm just trying to get some initial thoughts here just in case I do get asked to be part of their organization.

 

[AA717driver]

Send a PM to GVflyer. He was associated with Gulfstream and has all the numbers you are requesting.TC

 

[rice]

best guess would be flying stateside most of the time with some overseas stuff. Hard to say since I haven't been involved yet (other than info from a friend who knows them), but I would guess they would do several stateside O&Bs per week and maybe 1 overseas trip per month with the capability of reaching the far east (Hong Kong?). Probably based in the dc/md area. I'm just trying to get some initial thoughts here just in case I do get asked to be part of their organization.

Terp,
I'm really not trying to be a dick, so please take this as it's intended. While I don't know you or your experience other than what you've posted in your profile and the initial post on this thread, I'd have to say you are PROBABLY way in over your head if you take on a starting up a 91 flight dept. without any corporate experience. Its just not the same as the service (been there, done it).
I've started one and I'm here to tell you that we had the outside assistance of two guys with nearly 40 years of coporate time between them and we (me and the other guy who started the dept.) still made many mistakes. Any CEO running a company which is financially prepared to plunk down $40+ mil on a G-550 is not going to be very tolerant of missteps and rookie errors. I've known of guys with stellar Mil records who've tanked it in the Civ world just because they took on to much to soon and they were either shown the door or bumped down the food chain a few notches.
All this said, it can be done but do yourself a favor, if you get the opportunity to do this, find a highly experienced guy with decent time in type and listen to him. Also hire a MX chief with a solid background in the type you'll be operating. He'll be worth his weight in gold!!!!!
JMHO, Good Luck and keep asking questions.

 

[27 driver]

The best thing to do is probably to use a quarter share deal like NetJets or Citation shares for a little while. This way you can sample different planes for comfort, layout, range, etc. Many offer short term contracts with buy outs at the end. It might cost a little more initially, but it will help to make the decision on type and you will have an idea of travel patterns, amount of passengers, mx costs and the such. Definitely do not try to take this on by yourself. Using a consultant with experience will save tons of money and time. Good luck.

 

[Rick1128]

Terp,
I'm really not trying to be a dick, so please take this as it's intended. While I don't know you or your experience other than what you've posted in your profile and the initial post on this thread, I'd have to say you are PROBABLY way in over your head if you take on a starting up a 91 flight dept. without any corporate experience. Its just not the same as the service (been there, done it).
I've started one and I'm here to tell you that we had the outside assistance of two guys with nearly 40 years of coporate time between them and we (me and the other guy who started the dept.) still made many mistakes. Any CEO running a company which is financially prepared to plunk down $40+ mil on a G-550 is not going to be very tolerant of missteps and rookie errors. I've known of guys with stellar Mil records who've tanked it in the Civ world just because they took on to much to soon and they were either shown the door or bumped down the food chain a few notches.
All this said, it can be done but do yourself a favor, if you get the opportunity to do this, find a highly experienced guy with decent time in type and listen to him. Also hire a MX chief with a solid background in the type you'll be operating. He'll be worth his weight in gold!!!!!
JMHO, Good Luck and keep asking questions.

The best thing to do is probably to use a quarter share deal like NetJets or Citation shares for a little while. This way you can sample different planes for comfort, layout, range, etc. Many offer short term contracts with buy outs at the end. It might cost a little more initially, but it will help to make the decision on type and you will have an idea of travel patterns, amount of passengers, mx costs and the such. Definitely do not try to take this on by yourself. Using a consultant with experience will save tons of money and time. Good luck.

First, any company that has the bucks to go heavy iron has used and understands the use of consultants. Using them will help greatly and reduce your workload. Even then there will be missteps. Remember you will be dealing with the FAA. BEWARE of any consultant that promises first time acceptance of FAA documents and programs. It usually means they are way too conservative. Remember YOU have to live with whatever they get accepted by the Feds. Always be involved and look over their shoulders all the time. Get what you need and what will work for your operation. NBAA has a great deal of help in this area. I have never known them to refuse to assist an startup operation, even if they were not a member. Remember you are a future member. They can put you in touch with other operators in your area.

Maintenance. Good luck with finding a good MX director. They are all taken. And you will most likely have to work real hard to get a good one. Over the years I have usually found a excellent shop in the local area and used them. Pay them a little extra and drive on. A good shop will not screw you. You are worth too much to them to do that.

Too be brutal about it, there is nothing cheap about fractionals. And I have yet found one that offers buyout option. Or at least a viable buyout option. I have done the figures and found that charter is actually less expensive. Go with the high end operators like Jet Aviation, PrivatAir, TAG and so on. Discuss with the boss that they are using these operators to find out what type aircraft fits their needs best. But be sure to explain the negatives of managed aircraft and fractionals. They will have no control over who their pilots are and so on. In your best interests be creative and make it as long a list as you can.

Several on this board are pushing G550's. From what you have stated their requirements are it sounds like a G550 might be too much aircraft. Yes they will grow in their use, but be realistic on their needs and requirements. Also be careful that they don't get enough aircraft. And is much worst than getting too airplane. With too much airplane, they know it is costing them money. But it is comfortable and it does everything they need. Not enough airplane and it costs them money, they are uncomfortable and it doesn't do the job.

Good luck