Starting UPT. How should I log my time?

[MarineGrunt]

I asked a few questions in the "military transition" forum about logging time at UPT, but I figured to avoid getting confused, I should start a whole new thread here.

I am hitting the flight line in about two weeks and want to get off to a good start logging my flight time (in my civillian lodbook). I want to be conservative, but also still want to log every bit that I am entitled to. I plan on sending out airline apps when I get back, so I need some tips.

SO... starting from flight #1, what do you recommend?

BTW - I am also curious about solo time in the T-37 as PIC? Everything else dual recieved?

 

[MarineGrunt]

Also, does anyone know if SkyWest has a conversion for military time?

 

[firstthird]

I'd recommend that you keep your civilian and military time separate. The Navy/Marines keep a real log book that you can/should review each month for accuracy. The guys in operations actually record all the data and you as the pilot just check it once a month (ideally) for accuracy and sign at the bottom saying it is correct.

Then, 7 or 10 or 20 years from now if you want to pursue a civilian flying career, handle all the conversions and what not then. Since different companies use different factors and ways. Some allow you to use a 1.2 factor or a .3 per sortie, etc. Others have you just enter your straight military time and they add in what they consider to be fair for taxi time behind the curtain.

If you start mixing your civilian and military time now, it will be a real mess 10 years from now when you apply to airline X and they want you to add .3 per military sortie for taxi time and you already have some scheme you came up with as a SNA that doesn't match.

Now, by all means, make copies of you military logbook (books when you get more than one) on a regular basis and keep them someplace safe since it is not unheard of for one to get lost in operations or during a move or deployment. And maybe do some kind of military only spreadsheet if you want, but frankly most guys seem to have done it 12 months prior to separating and that works fine.

About the PIC/solo question, it has been discussed ad nauseum on this board but my 2 cents is that it won't be that much time and it is better to keep it simple and just call it dual received and start logging PIC once qualed in the aircraft.

I notice you are talking T-37, doing UPT with the air force? They use some computer thing (i.e. not a real logbook) I would hope they have some Navy guy there doing real log books for you guys so you don't show up at your first USMC command with some lame print out. (although if that is the case, so be it, better than showing up with your jeppesen master commander log with your T-37 time all written in)

Anyway, good luck with that, enjoy the early morning standups (or whatever they are called).

 

[MarineGrunt]

Thanks for the reply.

I knew I was probably going to start a flame war with the solo/PIC issue, but I just don't see why it CAN'T be counted as PIC. I don't think I would have trouble arguing that I am the sole manipulator, and that I am the final authority when it comes to decisions I make in the airplane. The only way I could see it might be argued the other way is that I do not have a type in the the aircraft, but then again, there is none. That being said, wouldn't my pre-solo training and sign-off (or whatever) consider me "rated" in the airplane?

BTW- FYI, I don't want my username to mislead anyone, I'm not in the USMC anymore... I sold out.... err..... umm... I mean, transferred to the Guard.

 

[Spur]

You should keep a seperate AF logbook, probably one of the computer ones you can customize. Keep columns for all the AF times (Primary, Secondary, other, etc) and add columns for Night (AF just counts primary night) and PIC (not tracked on your form 5 (AF logbook)).

Your solo time is PIC, but for the purpose of airline time, probably wont count for PIC. Generally they exclude student time, so UPT time is out.

 

[HoursHore]

The BX has AF log books. use One. Don't Count any PIC until after your AC Check. Don't worry. it will come soon enough. Solo time, while it feels like AC time, only is like 12 hours and is actually is still Stud time, since you haven't been checked out in the plane.

 

[Yahtzee]

Thanks for the reply.
I don't think I would have trouble arguing that I am the sole manipulator, and that I am the final authority when it comes to decisions I make in the airplane.
The only way I could see it might be argued the other way is that I do not have a type in the the aircraft, but then again, there is none. That being said, wouldn't my pre-solo training and sign-off (or whatever) consider me "rated" in the airplane?

Dude,

Congrats on getting selected for UPT. Log your time anyway you want to log, in any manner you wish to log it. I simply recommend this. Log your military time in you own personal logbook. I logged my time solo time in T-37s and 38s as student time. Just had a solo column in your logbook, and you'll know when you "think" you were the PIC. See my comments about the SOF, SUP & RSU below and you'll understand my choice of the word "T-H-I-N-K"

I think a computerized version is the best, as you can fix mistakes, and add conversion formulas much more easily with extra columns. Computerized logbooks are more capable than paper versions, but you will need to back them up regularly. You will soon learn about Primary, Secondary, etc and how the AF logs times and why it makes no sense to anyone but the AF. You'll have to log your time in another logbook, to keep tract of PIC & SIC....more of a problem for the heavy drivers than the fighter folks. Or you can simply not log your time (like many AF guys do)....and try to figure it all out later. Your plan will save you a lot of time later on when trying to apply for other jobs.

And I don't mean to rain on your parade and am not trying to be a prick here, but please understand you will NEVER be the final authority when it comes to any decision (other than maybe ejecting) when you are in a USAF T-anything. If you don't already understand these acronyms, you soon will: SOF, SUP, RSU. For crying out loud, many times the AETC IPs aren't the final authority when it comes to making decisions. Thankfully the T-1 gets out of radio contact of all those controlling parties on most days.

Yes, IPs can override a SOF, SUP, and RSUs, but will most likely get their butts chewed like bubble gum before they land. Trust me...I was an Active Duty IP for 4+ years, and currently teach has a reservist. Getting crosseyed with a SOF, SUP, RSU and about 99% of the time with AETC will get you to places you don't want to go. Don't go there...be tactful and polite on the radios. You get a lot more flies with honey than with salt.

Just go to UPT...study, give it 110% and have a good time. Help out your classmates and if some of them aren't pulling their weight...be honesty with them before an IP has to be. It will be one of the best times of your life if you don't get rapped around the axle.

You're gonna have a blast.

Congrats again,

Yahtz

 

[Swede]

The BX has AF log books. use One. Don't Count any PIC until after your AC Check. Don't worry. it will come soon enough. Solo time, while it feels like AC time, only is like 12 hours and is actually is still Stud time, since you haven't been checked out in the plane.

This is confusing to me. I am ex-military, AF. The Air Force doesn't "check" you out or give ratings in the civilian sense. How can solo NOT be PIC? SOMEBODY's got to be in command of the aircraft!

 

[RJP]

Yep, I agree with Swede. If you're the sole manipulator of the controls, you're PIC. Just because you're a student, doesn't mean your time doesn't count. That makes ZERO sense. Do you all recommend that everyone log time only after getting a commercial license and then only logging it after you've been "checked out" as an "aircraft commander"? Give me a break.

Dude, if you're flying a T-37, T-38, T-45, T-whatever and don't have your wings yet, you're still flying the aircraft. How anyone can say that time doesn't count is beyond me.

Guess I have to go back and erase all my C-172 "student time" now. Thanks a bunch.

 

[Yahtzee]

Yep, I agree with Swede. If you're the sole manipulator of the controls, you're PIC. Just because you're a student, doesn't mean your time doesn't count. That makes ZERO sense. Do you all recommend that everyone log time only after getting a commercial license and then only logging it after you've been "checked out" as an "aircraft commander"? Give me a break.

Dude, if you're flying a T-37, T-38, T-45, T-whatever and don't have your wings yet, you're still flying the aircraft. How anyone can say that time doesn't count is beyond me.

Guess I have to go back and erase all my C-172 "student time" now. Thanks a bunch.

RJP,

No one, particulary me, said the time doesn't count and I never wrote or implied time in a non-USAF trainer should be logged this way. If you inferred this, you should re-read my post and the one by firstthird. I wrote "Log your time anyway you want to log, in any manner you wish to log it." Then I described how I logged my time.

Here's something you may be unaware of: A USAF student pilot bears ZERO liablity or responsibility in any way, shape, form or fashion. The Squadron Supervisor (SUP) signs off a form allowing the student to solo. And yes, before I started pilot training for the USAF all of my solo time in a C-150/152/172 was logged as PIC. However, I CHOSE to log my solo time in T-37s and T-38s as a student. How could I justify logging PIC when I HAVE ZERO responsibility or accountability? I couldn't and therefore didn't.

Logging time this way may make "ZERO" sense to you, but it makes "TOTAL" sense to me. My input was for a USAF student pilot who asked how he thought he should log is time. This is my opinion. I can respect you for yours, and only ask you do the same of mine. He can take whatever advice he wants. I took a conservative approach and it worked for me.


Yahtz

 

[MK82Man]

MarineGrunt -- Having just gone through the Major Airline Hiring & Interview process and organizing 21 years of military flying experience over the last year, I'll give you some thoughts. 1) Get an electronic logbook. The days of the paper logbooks are just about over. Keep both if you can stand it. An electronic book will let you format the time for different carriers in different ways later and conversion factors are alot easier. 2) Ask 10 pilots how to log flight time; you will get 10 different answers. Especially when military and civilian time is concerned -- I've even seen so-called experts argue about it. The key is you understanding how you log your time. If you want to claim solo PIC time for T37 and T38, go ahead. Some don't. You can argue it either way, but the key is to have it tracked so you can delete it from your summary at the end of the game, or use it if you wish. 3) I have 200 hours, UPT, PIT, etc, that I did not post on my resume, but I told folks that I had that dual time. The thought being that I only wanted rated "pilot" time reflected on my resume -- you have years to decide how to present this, but the key is keeping track of it now. Electronic logbook. 4) Get a FAR AIM book and read the section that talks about logging flight time. As you go through your career you most likely will never get any instruction on how to log flight time. As long as you follow the FARs and can explain your rational, you will be ahead of 50% of the guys. 5) If you don't understand PIC, SIC, WX, XCntry time, etc, learn about it and then take the conservative approach. If someone ever accuses you of padding your logbook, it can get pretty ugly. 6) I always added .2 to every military sortie and it says so in the front of my logbook. You can always use your AFORMS product to use a different conversion, but most airlines accept the .2 correction as a good equaler of military time to civil time. 7) Always log the Inst, Sim Inst, and Night time, even if it is .1 or .2. Over 20 years it adds up and since most of your UPT time is Day VFR, the .3s make a big difference later. At the end of the road, your 20 years of worldwide flying experience in all kinds of weather will be more than enough to earn a flying job. Good luck. Add 10 knots for mom and the kids. Thanks for your service.

 

[av8instyle]

Here's what worked for me:

1-I flew civ before joining the military and had a logbook already started. I have read several times that while the computerized logs are convenient, airline interviewers sometimes view them as "impersonal". So I recommend paper until you get the job.

2-I have two logbooks: A total flight time Jeppesen Master logbook, and a military logbook that you can pick up at the uniform shop on base. I use the military book for just that-military time. I use the Jeppesen logbook for ALL logged flight time. I have Cessna 150 up to MD-80 AND F-16 in this book. Flight time is flight time.

3-Regarding the military conversion: Every airline is different and have different requirements. Therefore I recommend NOT logging a conversion. When you fill out the specific airline app/resume just add the conversion there and let the interviewers know that your logbook does not reflect their allowed conversion.

4-PIC---All UPT time solo is jet PIC period. You'll get 20 or so of it. Count it...it's legal...someone's gotta land the thing. However, even with a license I wouldn't recommend logging any other UPT time as PIC.

 

[mudkow60]

Do you Air Force guys have to buy your own log books? Mine were given me by the Navy.

 

[potrack]

Log It

Log T-37 and T-38 solo time as SOLO and PIC.

The instructional flights when your IP flies with you log as DUAL RECEIVED.

Just make sure your times add up and they match the print outs that the AF gives you. It is common to find mistakes. Your log book will be the best record.

Be neat, legible, and detailed. I don't mean write in the remarks where you went for lunch or what emergencies you had......Look at the FARs, they tell you the required items.

Use black ink, keep the names of the people you flew with and log your time.

 

[dudemize]

Hi MarineGrunt,

I'm with HoursWhore on this issue. In the overall scheme of things your UPT solo time is so minimal , it's not worthwhile to get too bent around the axle about it. As stated earlier you will have a grand total of 10-12 hours of solo time. As long as you feel you can justify it, log whatever you want. I noticed you said you were going to apply to the airlines as soon as you complete UPT. Why not fly your ass off in the reserves and upgrade to AC ASAP? I think the PIC turbine will help you a lot more than SIC with Skywest. Not to mention the much better pay in the reserves. If you were to get hired at Skywest I wouldn't be shy about taking mil leave!

 

[RJP]

Here's something you may be unaware of: A USAF student pilot bears ZERO liablity or responsibility in any way, shape, form or fashion. The Squadron Supervisor (SUP) signs off a form allowing the student to solo. And yes, before I started pilot training for the USAF all of my solo time in a C-150/152/172 was logged as PIC. However, I CHOSE to log my solo time in T-37s and T-38s as a student. How could I justify logging PIC when I HAVE ZERO responsibility or accountability? I couldn't and therefore didn't.

Yahtz

Hey Yahtz, you're correct that everyone has an opinion. It's great that you logged (or didn't log) the time that you flew the way you did and got a job.

However, I still have to disagree with your comment above. Ask the UPT student that packed-in a tweet short of the runway at Vance a couple years ago if he had ZERO RESPONSIBILITY. Dude, you're flying solo, you are SOLELY responsibile for your aircraft and your life. If you don't feel like calling that your responsibility, it's your choice but unless I've got an imaginary friend sitting next to me, I'm flying SOLO.

 

[Yahtzee]

RJP,

I'll admit I shouldn't have used "ZERO RESPONSIBILITY". My point is this: Students at a USAF UPT base have almost no accountability for their actions....other than doing something that would get them kicked out or killed.

I logged my time very conservatively and would do the same thing again.

Please check your PMs regarding Vance.

Yahtz

 

[milflyboy]

For the ones claiming it cannot be logged as PIC. Why does the following not apply?

FAR §61.51 Pilot Logbooks
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot crew member
(ii) Has a current flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for pilot certificate or rating.

 

[milflyboy]

I guess it all boils down to if you follow part 1 or part61. I guess according to Part1 it is not


Part 1 "Pilot in command" definition:

(1) Has final authority and responsiblility for the operation and safety of the flight.
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

Kind of silly you can have a flight where no sole person is PIC. I guess the guy signing for the solo student can't log the time either due to (2). Would of course also be kind of silly.

SWA applications require Part1 time. Didn't they require Part61 time at one point? If I am not mistaken they also back then required you to have 1500 Turbine PIC instead of 1000 Turbine PIC. Maybe I am wrong.