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Starting a 135 company
- Thread starter hawkercpt
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Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
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In order to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a LARGE fortune.
This will only be a good idea if this "Dad" has a really strong and experienced background in aviation, and has a large list of potential clients that know and respect him.
There are consultants who can do the greatest percentage of the paperwork. It isn't for the faint of heart. It makes creating a corporation seem simple.
I'm hoping that he has a good reason for this undertaking, and I wish him well.
This will only be a good idea if this "Dad" has a really strong and experienced background in aviation, and has a large list of potential clients that know and respect him.
There are consultants who can do the greatest percentage of the paperwork. It isn't for the faint of heart. It makes creating a corporation seem simple.
I'm hoping that he has a good reason for this undertaking, and I wish him well.
If you subscribe to professional pilot, i think there was an article about starting up a 135 outfit in either the feb. march or april issue this year. Let me loof at the past issues i have and i'll let ya know which month it was.
I think I read it was anywere from 3 months to 1 year, but hawkercpt is right. call the local FSDO and they'll tell you everything you want to know along with what paper work you'll need.
I think I read it was anywere from 3 months to 1 year, but hawkercpt is right. call the local FSDO and they'll tell you everything you want to know along with what paper work you'll need.
There is a little easier way than contacting your local FSDO. What my local FSDO does is point people toward the website of the ATL FSDO. They have the whole process on their website including copies of the required letter, etc.
Depending on the aircraft, FSI and Simuflite could wrtie your training program.
Good luck
Depending on the aircraft, FSI and Simuflite could wrtie your training program.
Good luck
Rick1128 said:
With no previous 135 experience he will most likely have to start out as a single pilot or single pilot-in-command operator. These do not require the management positions and training program spelled out in Part 119. We upgraded to a basic a year ago and when we submitted our training program to the FSDO (put together by FSI), our FSDO rejected it. They wanted it in a particular format the was developed by someone at the Raleigh FSDO. We went round and round with it and finally relented (they threatened not to give us the upgrade because of "bad non-compliance attitude"), scaned the FSI book into the FSDO format... pain in the butt. They can and will make you jump through many hoops. Alot of submitting of material, review, return and re-submittals. One of the tasks you will have is a Statement of Compliance - you will have to go through every 119 and 135 reg. and explain how you will comply with it. Best advice is to hire a company that specializes in setting up 135 companies.
It depends on the FSDO. But unless Inspector really doesn't know what they are doing they will not make you start as a single pilot operator. In fact they can not. If you run into this type of inspector, speak directly to the FSDO manager and request a new inspector.
Do you home work. Get a fresh copy of FAA Order 8400.10 the Air Carrier Inspector's Handbook. Get very familiar with it. Know what inspectors can and can not do.
Next, if FSI or Simuflite offers training in whatever aircraft type you are going to use, the FSDO will push you to use them. In fact they will get down right insistant about it. The most problems I have had about a FSI or Simuflite training program is that they tend to refer to themselves way too much. So you will have to keep going through the program to get all the inappropriate references to themselves out of it.
Most of the consultants that are out there are ex-FAA inspectors. It has been my experience that it doesn't garrentee it will be accepted. Sometimes it will create more problems than it solves.
Check the following:
www2.faa.gov/fsdo/atl/ncertinfo.htm
That is the website of the ATL FSDO it has a lot of good information. Just read it completely and follow each step completely. It will not be a breeze, but it is doable.
Do you home work. Get a fresh copy of FAA Order 8400.10 the Air Carrier Inspector's Handbook. Get very familiar with it. Know what inspectors can and can not do.
Next, if FSI or Simuflite offers training in whatever aircraft type you are going to use, the FSDO will push you to use them. In fact they will get down right insistant about it. The most problems I have had about a FSI or Simuflite training program is that they tend to refer to themselves way too much. So you will have to keep going through the program to get all the inappropriate references to themselves out of it.
Most of the consultants that are out there are ex-FAA inspectors. It has been my experience that it doesn't garrentee it will be accepted. Sometimes it will create more problems than it solves.
Check the following:
www2.faa.gov/fsdo/atl/ncertinfo.htm
That is the website of the ATL FSDO it has a lot of good information. Just read it completely and follow each step completely. It will not be a breeze, but it is doable.
Jeff Helgeson
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2002
- Posts
- 1,046
NBAA
Since NBAA is for the most part an association of corporate aircraft operators, it really is not as good a source of information as NATA, National Air Transportation Association. My current employer and previous employer are members of both organizations. NATA is really on top of the issues effecting Part 135 operators.
Since NBAA is for the most part an association of corporate aircraft operators, it really is not as good a source of information as NATA, National Air Transportation Association. My current employer and previous employer are members of both organizations. NATA is really on top of the issues effecting Part 135 operators.
mike1mc
Well-known member
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- Dec 3, 2002
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Look into buying a 135 certificate. You get the certificate and just need to transfer it into your FSDO. Just be sure you get a "clean" certificate. This may be cheaper, quiker, and easier than applying for one and starting from scratch. Come to think of it, I remember hearing the the FAA was limiting the number of new certificates after 9/11, not sure if things are back to normal. you can also put your aircraft on someone else's certificate while you get your up and running. Just some ideas....
Mike,
The FAA is sort of back to normal. Which is normal for the FAA.
There are a couple of problems with buying a certificate. The guidance issued to the inspectors will not them to transfer a certificate's ownership if there is a complete change of required management personnel. There are also several hoops you need to jump through to move the certificate. Finally, many of the certificates out there for sale have a 'history' with the FAA. And by that I mean the wrong kind of history. If you are going to have to have a fight with the feds, at least start out with a clean slate.
Running on someone elses certificate is called boot strapping. It is legal, but many feds don't like to see it. It can be a quick way to get started. If you are operating an aircraft that requires proofing flights, you will most likely be required to pay all the costs. Plus there will most likely be some fees involede.
The FAA is sort of back to normal. Which is normal for the FAA.
There are a couple of problems with buying a certificate. The guidance issued to the inspectors will not them to transfer a certificate's ownership if there is a complete change of required management personnel. There are also several hoops you need to jump through to move the certificate. Finally, many of the certificates out there for sale have a 'history' with the FAA. And by that I mean the wrong kind of history. If you are going to have to have a fight with the feds, at least start out with a clean slate.
Running on someone elses certificate is called boot strapping. It is legal, but many feds don't like to see it. It can be a quick way to get started. If you are operating an aircraft that requires proofing flights, you will most likely be required to pay all the costs. Plus there will most likely be some fees involede.
I believe that Professional Pilot had an article in the Feb. 2002 issue. All it really talks about is the differnce of part 91 vs. opening a 135 to help suplament the costs of a flight dept. It does refer to the Atlanta FSDO, saying that they have the best site for getting infomation. Hope this helps.
501261
Consigliere
- Joined
- May 27, 2002
- Posts
- 829
Good advise Rick, I think you hit the nail right on the head.
Flychicaga, why does your friend want to start a charter company? I hope it's not because he wants to make money! If the guy has the capital to start a company and wants to make more money, there are a lot better ways he can go about making money than getting into aviation (buy an Applebee's franchise next to an airport, you'll be rolling in it)!
There are some good reasons to start a charter company (i.e. tax benefits, having experienced people on hand to run it, need, etc.) but trying to make money is never a good reason to START a charter company.
Flychicaga, why does your friend want to start a charter company? I hope it's not because he wants to make money! If the guy has the capital to start a company and wants to make more money, there are a lot better ways he can go about making money than getting into aviation (buy an Applebee's franchise next to an airport, you'll be rolling in it)!
There are some good reasons to start a charter company (i.e. tax benefits, having experienced people on hand to run it, need, etc.) but trying to make money is never a good reason to START a charter company.
FlyChicago, I have started my own 135, I am located at a small airport north of DuPage,and I dealt with the DuPage FSDO. Is your friend's Father in this area?
We started with a Single Pilot part 135, only because it is easier to upgrade to a Basic 135. I used a retired DuPage FSDO employee to do my certification package, he started his own consulting firm, and I had no problems with it.
I will agree with the rest on the money issue, but I found the time the FSDO takes to approve the certificate is the most frustating part of the certification process.
It took us 5 months to get our certificate from start to finish, I would say check into insurance right away, we only had one taker out of eight companies that we shopped. The insurance people are not real excited about single airplane, single engine part 135 operations.
We found a niche in the midwest area that was needed by a certain industry and it is working out well for us, yes you can make money in aviation, we have added a second aircraft and are going after our Basic 135 after the new year.
Please feel free to email me at [email protected] if you would like more info.
Kevin
We started with a Single Pilot part 135, only because it is easier to upgrade to a Basic 135. I used a retired DuPage FSDO employee to do my certification package, he started his own consulting firm, and I had no problems with it.
I will agree with the rest on the money issue, but I found the time the FSDO takes to approve the certificate is the most frustating part of the certification process.
It took us 5 months to get our certificate from start to finish, I would say check into insurance right away, we only had one taker out of eight companies that we shopped. The insurance people are not real excited about single airplane, single engine part 135 operations.
We found a niche in the midwest area that was needed by a certain industry and it is working out well for us, yes you can make money in aviation, we have added a second aircraft and are going after our Basic 135 after the new year.
Please feel free to email me at [email protected] if you would like more info.
Kevin
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 1,533
As someone who is currently involved in the development of a 135 cert, here's my 2 cents.
Jeff foxworthy (I think) once said that getting married so that you can have sex is like buying a 747 so you can get free peanuts.
Starting a 135 op to get a flying job is like building a homebuilt from scratch so that you can get your private ticket.
You gotta really want to be in the 135 biz.
The paperwork is immense. As an earlier post mentioned, it took 5 months for a cert that allows one pilot and one airplane. And that was usung an ex-fed to do a lot of the legwork. My guess is since the aircraft is single engline that it's a VFR only op?
Now if you want 2 or three twins to do IFR? Not going anywhere for a while? Have a couple hundred snickers bars.
Unless you can get regular work hauling freight, you then have to go out and sell your services in the cutthroat pax-carrying industry.
The insurance companies are making harder than ever, as was also noted.
If it is what you (or your friend) really wants to do, then you will probably succeed.
BTW: You can go to your local FSDO and watch a video on the process.
Also check out FAA.gov, and hunt around for the 135 homepage.
Good luck! I know we'll need it.
Jeff foxworthy (I think) once said that getting married so that you can have sex is like buying a 747 so you can get free peanuts.
Starting a 135 op to get a flying job is like building a homebuilt from scratch so that you can get your private ticket.
You gotta really want to be in the 135 biz.
The paperwork is immense. As an earlier post mentioned, it took 5 months for a cert that allows one pilot and one airplane. And that was usung an ex-fed to do a lot of the legwork. My guess is since the aircraft is single engline that it's a VFR only op?
Now if you want 2 or three twins to do IFR? Not going anywhere for a while? Have a couple hundred snickers bars.
Unless you can get regular work hauling freight, you then have to go out and sell your services in the cutthroat pax-carrying industry.
The insurance companies are making harder than ever, as was also noted.
If it is what you (or your friend) really wants to do, then you will probably succeed.
BTW: You can go to your local FSDO and watch a video on the process.
Also check out FAA.gov, and hunt around for the 135 homepage.
Good luck! I know we'll need it.
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,625
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,625
It tells me we're dealing with a government agency.
Just imagine: what if an FAA inspector actually could legally interpret the regulations. Jeez, what a thought.
I'm not dumping on someone for being clueless, but I think they need to either fully school themselves or hire someone to fully school them before spending more than a few dollars on starting a 135 operation.
Just imagine: what if an FAA inspector actually could legally interpret the regulations. Jeez, what a thought.
I'm not dumping on someone for being clueless, but I think they need to either fully school themselves or hire someone to fully school them before spending more than a few dollars on starting a 135 operation.
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