Stand up crews, need advice

Launchpad

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I need some clarification from some of you die hard stand up/high-speed/CDO guys out there. It's been a while since I did these, and I need some FAR clarification before I reach for the Lube.... Seems like I'm getting the hose job.

I understand that there is no real duty limitation, just the 24 hour lookback for rest. My argument is that the 16 hour limit is a hard time on a stand up, but I'm getting the "Legal to start-Legal to finish argument" See below post, I also need some clarification on this. I was obviously legal to start, or the pairing would not have been in the bid packet... The last let in the AM or 2 legs for that matter would have put me over the 16, is that BS or legal?

Basically the stand up started on 2030 local and scheduled to duty off the following day at 1100am or 14.5 hours later which is fine. For this example, I do one leg at night and 5 legs in the morning (fun, huh?) or 2.5 round trips in the morning. Today I was way late, and after the 3rd leg which put me at my destination (base) within the 16 hours I told them that the next round would turn me into a pumpkin. I got the legal to start/legal to finish argument. By that rationale, why even have FAR's?

My question is the legal to start/legal to finish argument for the whole trip or for each leg? I was legal to finish, but then the fog came in.... I think the last round should have been eliminated for me to be legal. The long and short of it is that I went over the 16, which in turn screwed up the whole 24 hour lookback

Any suggestions?

Thanks for the input-

(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time
in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned
are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to
circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse
weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their
destination within the scheduled time.
 

FracCapt

Clown punchers, unite!
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You need to specify what part your operating under....121 or 135, scheduled or unscheduled.
 

DC8 Flyer

It's SO BIG!
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Launchpad said:
I need some clarification from some of you die hard stand up/high-speed/CDO guys out there. It's been a while since I did these, and I need some FAR clarification before I reach for the Lube.... Seems like I'm getting the hose job.

I understand that there is no real duty limitation, just the 24 hour lookback for rest. My argument is that the 16 hour limit is a hard time on a stand up, but I'm getting the "Legal to start-Legal to finish argument" See below post, I also need some clarification on this. I was obviously legal to start, or the pairing would not have been in the bid packet... The last let in the AM or 2 legs for that matter would have put me over the 16, is that BS or legal?

Basically the stand up started on 2030 local and scheduled to duty off the following day at 1100am or 14.5 hours later which is fine. For this example, I do one leg at night and 5 legs in the morning (fun, huh?) or 2.5 round trips in the morning. Today I was way late, and after the 3rd leg which put me at my destination (base) within the 16 hours I told them that the next round would turn me into a pumpkin. I got the legal to start/legal to finish argument. By that rationale, why even have FAR's?

My question is the legal to start/legal to finish argument for the whole trip or for each leg? I was legal to finish, but then the fog came in.... I think the last round should have been eliminated for me to be legal. The long and short of it is that I went over the 16, which in turn screwed up the whole 24 hour lookback

Any suggestions?

Thanks for the input-

(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time
in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned
are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to
circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse
weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their
destination within the scheduled time.
I always understood legal to start legal to finnish applied to the 8 hour rule?? IE you are scheduled four 2 hour legs. The first 3 go as planned but then on the last leg you go over by .2 for whatever reason. Since you only had 6 hours logged and the last leg was blocked for 2 hours, you are legal to start that leg and legal to finnish even though you go over.

The 16 hour rule (121 world) is a hard limit, no matter what you cannot launch if you will go over that. Not sure how that works though if you are at 14 hours of duty and the leg is blocked at 1:45 leaving you with the standard :15 minutes for log out?? I believe you can start the trip as long as you are legal to finnish within the 16 hours based on scheduled block time and ACTUAL duty time, not scheduled duty time.

In your situation, if I understand it correctly, you got wx problems that delayed you in getting in on the first couple legs, but your actual duty time is still running. So if you are at X hours of duty and the next LEG, not necessarily round trip, will take you over 16 based on scheduled block time, then you cannot go. Again this is all coming from 121 experience. Not exactly sure how 135 works but I think the same principle applies.

Duty time is a hard limit, if a scheduled leg will take over the majic number you cant do it, but if the scheduled leg is under the majic number you can go and if you go over because of delays no biggie. The quirkie thing is extended rest is based on SCHEDULED flight time not actual or duty time, go figure.
 

Launchpad

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I think your right now that my memory has been jogged, I think the legal to start/finish thing is for flight time, not duty time.

You understood me correct. Although with such a small company like this, the last two legs would have been the affected ones. Wouldn't do us any good to be timed out at the outstation.

Thanks for the response, any others are welcome.

Launchpad-
 

chperplt

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I think you better fill out a NASA form at the least... If your company has a good relationship with your POI, you might want to self disclose. You'll probably get a letter of warning in your file for a couple years, but if the company sells you out, you'll looking at a suspension of your ticket..
 

loflyer

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DC-8's response is correct. The legal to start legal to finish is a very dangerous cliche in that it has a tendancy to drift into the duty time side of the regulations...and that is not the place for it. When you are dealing with exceeding 16 hours of duty, you are affecting 24-hour lookback rest; and that is not acceptable. Duty time needs to be calculated on a leg by leg basis. Moreover, it's calculated based on anticipated flight time, not scheduled flight time. So, lets say you are flying a flight from LAX to SFO that is normallly scheduled for 1:35, however, due to adverse winds (or whatever reason) your expected flight time as shown on your flight plan is 2:15; you must at the time of power application for takeoff add the 2:15 to the current time to determine if you would expect to arrive at SFO under the 16-hour limit. It's not good enough that you depart the gate figuring that if the flight flown "as originally scheduled" would have allowed you to arrive within 16-hours. Companies hate this because it is really difficult to manage.

With all of that said, there is one small part of the duty time side of the regulations that allow for legal to start legal to finish. That is where the flight took off fully expecting to arrive within the 16-hours, but due to a unexpected delay encountered enroute was not able to. In this situation, you are completely legal. But as you can see, that's not much of an application of legal to start legal to finish. It also should be noted that I keep refering to 16-hours...this is not always the case. It could be a 15-hour limit - bottom line is, you must comply with the applicable rest requirements.

This is a very complex issue to say the least. Matt Schack (AFS-200 Branch Manager in Washington) just issued yet another clarification letter on duty time v. scheduled flight time earlier this month at the request of American Airlines that essentially addresses the same issue you raised.

Hope this helps.
 
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