Spins

[MiragePilot]

Is it ridiculous for a student with just a few hours to ask his instructor to perform a spin and recovery. I just want to experience it as I think it would greatly help my fear of going into a spin.
Thanks

 

[minitour]

I'm really torn on this subject.

On one hand...I hate spins...I didn't like doing them for the CFI, I don't like the idea of showing students how to get in and out of them...I just don't like them.

On the other hand...I'd rather show them how to properly get out of a spin rather than them go do it in the practice area during a solo or right after their private license.

On the other hand...I'd rather show them stall/spin awareness and avoidance so they don't get into the spin in the first place.

On the other hand...Who's to say they'll never get into one even if they do know how to avoid it and know it's coming....then if they do, how will they know how to recover?

On the other hand...the faa has "stall/spin awareness" in the PTS for a reason..

...if a student asked me to show them a spin, would I do it?

Wow...tough question. I honestly don't know. Hopefully I won't come up to that question.

I guess one alternative would be to find someone that teaches aerobatics and go up to do some spins....but in my personal opinion (and that's all it is...others will vary), student pilots shouldn't be shown spins until either just before the checkride or after it.

I'm sure that didn't help much...sorry.

Oh yeah...to answer the question:
"Is it ridiculous for a student with just a few hours to ask his instructor..."

I don't believe it's rediculous for a student with any amount of hours to ask his or her instructor anything. You may not get the answer you like, but never feel afraid to ask a question. That's how you learn.

-mini

 

[Flechas]

I love spins and I think that they should be in the Pvt PTS.
Anytime a student would ask me to show them a spin I did, but not without some ground.

 

[The_Russian]

The FAA removed spins from the Private PTS for a reason. People were killing themselves left and right because they were out in the practice area attempting to have some fun. Awareness is desribed as a ground lesson involing stalls with a "this is what could happen and how to get out of it" section added.

Mini-

It depends on the student. If for any reason you feel that the student will perform the manuever on their own for fun, then you should not demonstrate the manuever. Any student who is afraid of a spin or any realm of flight beyond normal manuevers should not be taught the spin. If a student crashes during private instruction for attempting a spin after being instructed how to enter the manuever, you will be found responsible. I would hold off until the student is at a level where they are confident and so are you.

Hope this helps.

 

[minitour]

Mini-

It depends on the student. If for any reason you feel that the student will perform the manuever on their own for fun, then you should not demonstrate the manuever. Any student who is afraid of a spin or any realm of flight beyond normal manuevers should not be taught the spin. If a student crashes during private instruction for attempting a spin after being instructed how to enter the manuever, you will be found responsible. I would hold off until the student is at a level where they are confident and so are you.

Hope this helps.

That's kinda what I figured.

I think that confidence level (from me anyway) is going to take quite a bit of time...I didn't care for the spin ride at all....yuckies

Thanks

-mini

 

[xjcaptain]

Assuming that an appropriate aircraft is available, I would suggest to any student that if their instructor wasn't comfortable TEACHING about the issues pertaining spins, as well as DEMONSTRATING spin entry and recovery it might be a good idea to find a new instructor. If they are not comfortable with the maneuver themselves, it might be time for a little self evaluation about their own abilities.
We can debate and debate prevention vs demonstration and recovery, but until you see the horizon tip over and rotate, all the textbook instruction is for the most part meaningless. The chance of performing properly something you have only talked and/or read about properly in the real world is probably pretty slim.
Could you do 20 hours of ground teaching somebody all the in's and out's of doing landings and feel comfortable with their ability to actually go out and do it, never having done it before? End of discussion in my book.

 

[Flechas]

Amen....

 

[midlifeflyer]

Is it ridiculous for a student with just a few hours to ask his instructor to perform a spin and recovery. I just want to experience it as I think it would greatly help my fear of going into a spin.

Answer without the extra and un-asked for judgment:

No, it's not at all ridiculous. But it probably makes sense to wait untill you've progressed through slow flight, stalls and a ground session on spins so that the maneuver is in context. You may even find that doing those and understaning what a spin is and how to prevent it calms those fears without actually doing them. As tgests, for some, understanding is enough; for others, there is no substitute for doing it.

 

[Lead Sled]

The FAA removed spins from the Private PTS for a reason. People were killing themselves left and right...

[font=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]I've said this before, but if I were king of the world, I would require spin training and student demonstrated entries and recoveries in both directions. (I would also require some glider, taildragger and aerobatic training - buts that's a topic for another discussion.) I feel that it's a shame that the FAA no longer requires this for all grades of airman certificates.[/font]

[font=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]This hasn't always been so. Years ago, it was a requirement for student pilots to have spin training. Back then, stall/spins were one of the leading causes of aviation fatalities. The FAA (Oops, back then it was the CAA) recognized that, in most cases, if an aircraft is capable of stalling it is also capable of spinning therefore they required spin training. Years later the enlightened FAA decided that if they just ignored the problem it would go away. Hence the requirement for spin training was removed. The results? Stall/spins continued to be one of the leading causes aviation fatalities. Finally, the FAA decided that perhaps they had over done it and reinstated the requirement for spin training, but for CFI applicants only. The results? Stall/spins still continue to be one of the leading causes of fatalities in general aviation.[/font]

[font=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]The problem with the current FAA approach is that it isn't working. Stall/Spins are still a contributing factor in a large percentage of aviation deaths. You can have a extensive "book" understanding of the factors involved, but the actual experience is so disorienting to one who has never experienced it before as to make verbal explanations virtually meaningless. I personally believe that it would be much better to have the student's first spin experience with a CFI at his side than hanging from the straps at pattern altitude, watching the world starting to spin around him with his wife sitting beside him and wondering what the hell just happened.[/font]

[font=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]The manufacturers, for the most part, have tried to design the "spin" right out of most of their designs. That's why it's so hard to get most (but not all) of the typical general aviation aircraft that we fly to spin. The problem is that nearly any airplane will spin if it's provoked enough and those that won't spin are more than willing to enter the infamous "graveyard spiral". (Any guesses why that name?) I feel that if an airplane is capable of spinning, then the student had dang well better be trained and proficient in spin entries and "textbook" recoveries (both directions) - regardless of what the FAA requires. (And not in an airplane that only requires you to relax pressure on the controls to recover. Believe me, there are many popular airplanes out there that require "aggressive" spin recovery techniques.)

It's not the spin training per se, but the knowledge of what's involved that has the potential to save lives. After all the classic stall/spin accident occurs at low altitude while the aircraft is making the base-to-final turn. My personal opinion is that proper training demands more than simply a thorough explanation of the aerodynamics involved. While absolutely necessary, this explanation must also be accompanied by appropriate demonstrations by both the instructor and student. In my case, I set up spin entry demos with the classic "base-to-final" scenario.

I fear that if too much emphasis is placed on how difficult it is to get a ___________ (fill in the blank - Tomahawk, C152, C172, Cherokee, etc.) to spin the student might come away with the mistaken impression that it's not a big deal. Personally, I'd rather let them experience both spin and spiral recoveries because that's what they're going to be doing if it ever happens to them. It's basically a new twist on the old concept of "See and Avoid". After all, I don't care how proficient you are with spins, if you allow yourself to get into one at pattern altitude or below, you and your passengers are most likely going to die! Certainly a thorough "academic" understanding of spins is essential, but actual spin demonstrations put the exclamation point at the end of the sentence - if you know what I mean. Teaching the finer points of spin entries and how to force a particular airplane to spin is probably best left to a dedicated aerobatic course. [/font]

'Sled

 

[MiragePilot]

thanks for your input. I'm not the person to go have fun doing a spin. I wanted to experience a spin for training purposes only.
Thanks

 

[garf12]

I think its a good idea to experience one. I had my CFI demonstrate one for me right before I took my private test. One was enough for me though, I just about punched a grumpy.

 

[sky37d]

A friend of mine and I were taking flight lessons at about the same time, in the same sequence, and with the same instructor. He stalled the 152, and then put it in a spin. The instructor recovered, and he hated stalls ever since.

 

[Steveair]

Go do the spin! Great experience! Good Times! Remember, we do these to recognize the conditions leading up to the spin and to recover with a minimum loss of altitude. There's no reason not to practice so long as you are with a CFI who is experienced with them and the aircraft is within limitiations.

Here's the real question...

WHY is it you can spin a Warrior in England but not the US?

 

[Mr. Cole]

I posted this on an aviation newsgroup recently, but it seems appropriate to post on this topic as well. Before doing stalls as a private student I was as nervous about doing them as most of us are. But after having them demonstrated I realized they were no big deal and I actually enjoyed them. Then one lesson while doing power-on stalls I had a wing drop and thought we were about to spin. I recovered from the drop correctly by using top rudder, and in hindsight realize I wasn't close to spinning the 172. But I realized at that point that stalls weren't the ultimate unknown, it was spins. So I went from being confident in doing stalls to being a little apprehensive. I ultimately went on to do spin training, including inverted spins, and several hours of aerobatic training. The interesting part is that while I love spins, I still don't like to do stalls. I think it's because with a spin I know the outcome. But with a stall you have a little less certainty about how and when exactly the stall will break. With a spin I feel like I'm getting to where I'm going to ultimately end up, but in a stall I'm not quite there yet. But once I'm doing stalls they're just fine, but I would prefer to just do a spin.

Dave

 

[dabandermac]

if >3500 agl the aircraft (let's say a C172) should come out of the spin on its own if left alone, correct?

 

[Steveair]

if >3500 agl the aircraft (let's say a C172) should come out of the spin on its own if left alone, correct?

Two things...

1. Can you really "SPIN" a 172? I've never really been able to get anything more than a steep spiral out of it.

2. AOPA or the FAA, I don't remember who, recommended that if you get into a spin and you haven't had spin training, you should just let go.

This is 100% true. When you start doing your spin training, you'll find that neutralizing the controls will practically stop the spin. In my experience, the 172 will always come out of the spin. In the Decathlon, I find that if you let go prior to the spin entering the fully developed phase, the Deca will recover on its own. After that, you've gotta bring the controls inputs to recover.

If you want to learn more, here's some more info since I have nothing to do! (remember, if you ever quit learning, you better quit flying).

How can you recognize a spin v. steep spiral?
- Airspeed will increase in a steep spiral.

Why not bring in power?
- Increased airflow over the tail = more tail down force = flat spin.
- Thrust centerline is above CG = tail down.

Why not use ailerons?
- Spin to the right and you apply left aileron. Right aileron up, left down. Left aileron acts as a flap / produces more lift. However, that also produces more drag (induced), which tightens the spin.

4 Phases of a Spin?
- Entry, Incipient, Recovery

Types of Spins?
Upright, inverted, flat.

C172 Spin Limitations?
- Utility Category only, No people in the backseat, everything secured. (Section 2 - Limitations)

Hope that helps / have fun!

 

[soarby007]

I totally agree with Lead Sled.

Yes you can spin a 172 if you try real hard and yes it will recover on it's own, assuming you are not out of CG. Most of the single engine Cessnas will recover on their own. The best training I ever had was the aerobatic course in Chandler, Az. in the Great Lakes doing evey spin imaginable, and that was the easy part of the course.

When I was instructing I found out that students sometimes didn't conceptualize what a spin was unless demonstrated and shown what conditions will get you there. They didn't want a full blown 3 turn spin, just the incipient phase was enough. But if the guy didn't want it, I just did the ground training for what it was worth.