Spins are fun

[JonJohn82]

Howdy,

I went up and did my spin training for CFI in the Cessna Aerobat today. I was a little nervous about it at first, but I found they are REALLY fun. I just had to share that. Any thoughts on spins?

Jon

 

[MFRskyknight]

Spins? They sure look like fun... in fact, I'm in the middle of training right now on a "Spin Simulation Device" -- what the layman would call an office chair.

Happy spinning!

MFRskyknight

 

[Eagleflip]

Before anyone rains on your parade and tells you that spins are inherently unsafe to teach (that's why the FAA no longer requires spin training for all syllabii except for the CFI, they reason) and do, congratulations!

Assuming you did them under appropriate supervision, they are a blast to see and do. Plus, you can never have too much "upset" training in my book. The first time you ever see a spin should not be at traffic pattern altitude. Or at 4000 feet doing a stall series that has suddenly gone awry.

Yeah, yeah, I know. The chances of recovering from a spin at traffic pattern altitude are not great. Yet your chances, as a trained individual, are significantly higher than someone who had never witnessed a spin to begin with.

Again, do them appropriately, safely, and enjoy!

 

[JonJohn82]

Thanks, Eagleflip!

Spins have been a worry of mine since I heard about them while getting my private. I had seen and read about them in books and on TV, but I didn't know exactly what to expect when actually performing them. I always worried when doing stalls about getting into a spin situation and how I would react. It feels good to finally do them and not be quite so afraid of the unkown.

I suppose it's better to find out how to handle one now than when a student does something odd someday.

Thanks again,
Jon

 

[garf12]

I allways worry about getting in to a spin when doing stalls, escpecially turning stalls, but my instructor promises that it is pretty hard to get a 172 into a spin. Is this true?

 

[JonJohn82]

I'm no expert at spins seeing as how I just experienced my first series of spins today. However in the C-152, I had to hold full rudder and full backpressure on the yoke to keep it in a spin. Once I relaxed the yoke and set the rudders back to neutral it came out of it. I hear the same is true for the 172. That's unconfirmed though.


Jon

 

[labbats]

Stalls and spins would be so much more enjoyable if they did away with the "Reefer Madness" type of hype about it. In a training airplane it's pretty hard to get into a spin and very easy to get out of.

 

[UnstableAviator]

Go try to spin a 172 with the power idled. You can't do it. Or at least I can't.

A 172 will spin with power in though, but you'll need to use all the rudder right as the stall occurs. The most turns I have gotten out of it has been two and a half. But I'm also pretty new at teaching spins to CFI students.

I think it is a shame we don't teach spins to private students. I know during training I would have been much less concerned about spinning during a stall if I actually knew what would happen.

Good call of the "Reefer Madness" paranoia though.

 

[JonJohn82]

I agree. I wish I would have had at least one lesson of spins during my private training. It would have calmed my fears of spinning the aircraft a bit.

Jon

 

[nosehair]

spin cycle

aaaah, Grasshopper, you are grasping the pebble from my hand...
...a small group here who are discovering the real reason for spin training. You are experiencing a new high in confidence in yourself and your machine....

 

[turpentyine]

How do you get out of a spin? I remember hearing once that if you simply let go the controls the plane will eventually stop spinning by itself, but what if you are too low for that?

 

[FracCapt]

When I was teaching primary students, I required spin training prior to solo. Everybody knew that going into it - so nobody was suprised when I "spring it on them" prior to solo. I had access to several aerobatic aircraft. The aircraft I did spin training in depended on what they were training in. If they were training in low wing aircraft, we did the spin training in a Robin Sport - which is a tricycle gear low wing aerobatic 160hp 2 seater. If they were doing training in a high wing, we went with the Decathalon. As part of the spin training lesson, I would put them in extreme unusual attitudes for them to recover. It alleviated the fear that many students have of an airplane being in an attitude other than straight/level or shallow(less than 30 degree) banks. As a side effect, well over half of the students went on to pursue aerobatic training after their private.

 

[garf12]

How do you get out of a spin? I remember hearing once that if you simply let go the controls the plane will eventually stop spinning by itself, but what if you are too low for that?

Well I've never expierenced a spin, but if I remember right I was told to pull power to idle, and hard rudder opposite the direction of spin. That sound about right?

 

[JonJohn82]

Power to idle, ailerons neutral, apply full opposite rudder, and neutralize the elevator. The opposite rudder stops the rotation and neutralizing the elevator breaks the stall. However, all we had to do in the C-152 Aerobat is neutralize the rudder and elevator to stop the spin.

 

[rumorhasit]

Or allow a new pvt student to go out and show all his friends how "cool" it is and crash into a school or something. I think that is what the FAA was thinking?

How about spinning then going inverted on one of the turns?

 

[JB74]

My first instructor covered spins a couple days before my pvt checkride. Not really a big deal in a 152. We couldn't get more than about two rotations before it would self recover. He also tried to show me a half-a$$ed loop and barrel roll. I think it was his way of telling me what NOT to do with the airplane (ie get it out of your system now while with an instructor). He flies for ASA now. Great instructor.

 

[RJPilott]

My first instructor covered spins a couple days before my pvt checkride. Not really a big deal in a 152. We couldn't get more than about two rotations before it would self recover. He also tried to show me a half-a$$ed loop and barrel roll. I think it was his way of telling me what NOT to do with the airplane (ie get it out of your system now while with an instructor). He flies for ASA now. Great instructor.

And im sure you both were wearing a chute?

 

[JB74]

No. In retrospect, we should not have been doing what we did (amazing what you learn between pvt checkride and 200hrs). I would put that on my list of "stupid sh!t" I've done. I guess that is what happens when the student and instructor are buddies outside of the FBO.

 

[Lead Sled]

[font=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]If I were king of the world, I would require spin training and student demonstrated entries and recoveries in both directions. (I would also require some glider training - buts that's a topic for another discussion.) I feel that it's a shame that the FAA no longer requires this for all grades of airman certificates.

This hasn't always been so. Years ago, it was a requirement for student pilots to have spin training. Back then, stall/spins were one of the leading causes of aviation fatalities. The FAA (Oops, back then it was the CAA) recognized that, in most cases, if an aircraft is capable of stalling it is also capable of spinning therefore they required spin training. Years later on the enlightened FAA decided that if they just ignored the problem it would go away. Hence the requirement for spin training was removed. The results? Stall/spins continued to be one of the leading causes aviation fatalities. Finally, the FAA decided that perhaps they had over done it and reinstated the requirement for spin training, but for CFI applicants only. The results? Stall/spins still continue to be one of the leading causes of fatalities in general aviation.

The problem with the current FAA approach is that it isn't working. Stall/Spins are still a contributing factor in a large percentage of aviation deaths. You can have a extensive "book" understanding of the factors involved, but the actual experience is so disorienting to one who has never experienced it before as to make verbal explanations virtually meaningless. I personally believe that it would be much better to have the student's first spin experience with a CFI at his side than hanging from the straps at pattern altitude, watching the world starting to spin around him with his wife sitting beside him and wondering what the hell just happened.

The manufactures have done their part - they have tried to design the "spin" right out of most of their designs. That's why it's so hard to get most (but not all) of the typical general aviation aircraft that we fly to spin. The problem is that nearly any airplane will spin if it's provoked enough and those that won't spin are more than willing to enter the infamous "graveyard spiral". (Any guesses why that name?) I feel that if an airplane is capable of spinning, then the student had dang well better be trained and proficient in spin entries and "textbook" recoveries (both directions) - regardless of what the FAA requires. (And not in an airplane that only requires you to relax pressure on the controls to recover. Believe me, there are many popular airplanes out there that require "aggressive" spin recovery techniques.)

It's not the spin training per se, but the knowledge of what's involved that has the potential to save lives. After all the classic stall/spin accident occurs at low altitude while the aircraft is making the base-to-final turn. My personal opinion is that proper training demands more than simply a thorough explanation of the aerodynamics involved. While absolutely necessary, this explanation must also be accompanied by appropriate demonstrations by both the instructor and student. In my case, I set up spin entry demos with the classic "base-to-final" scenario.

I fear that if too much emphasis is placed on how difficult it is to get a ___________ (fill in the blank - Tomahawk, C152, C172, Cherokee, etc.) to spin the student might come away with the mistaken impression that it's not a big deal. Personally, I'd rather let them experience both stall and spiral recoveries because that's what they're going to be doing if it ever happens to them. It's basically a new twist on the old concept of "See and Avoid". After all, I don't care how proficient you are with spin entries, if you allow yourself to get into one at pattern altitude or below, you and your passengers are most likely going to die! Certainly a thorough "academic" understanding of spins is essential, but actual spin demonstrations put the exclamation point at the end of the sentence - if you know what I mean. Teaching the finer points of spin entries and how to force a particular airplane to spin is probably best left to a dedicated aerobatic course. [/font]

Lead Sled

 

[garf12]

what causes the spin turning base to final? What do people do wrong?