speed limit 12 miles offshore

[atldc9]

Did anyone see the April 10, 2007 Letter of Interpretation from the FAA regarding offshore speed limits. I can't seem to paste the the document here, but basically it said the FAA is holding the speed limit of 250 below 10,000 no matter if you are in international waters or not. They even go on to say that some of the books, e.g. the Instrument Procedures Handbook are wrong and will be changed to be in accordance with this view.

Seems like quite a change.

The interpretation can be found here:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/Interpretations/

 

[regionalcap]

incomplete link

 

[atldc9]

Sorry try this...

U.S.Department
of Transportation
Federal Aviation
Administration
APR 1 0 2007
Mr. David E. Shacknai
216 Robin Redbreast Road
Newark, DE 19711
Dear Mr. Schacknai:
This letter responds to your request for reconsideration of our October 12, 2005
interpretation of 14 CFR § 91.117(a). This interpretation was issued to Mr. Michael De
Marco and addressed whether a U.S. registered aircraft, operating within US. Class B, or
any other type of designated airspace, is required to comply with 14 CFR § 91.117(a) when
more than 12 miles offshore.
A copy of the relevant portions ofthe October 12, 2005, interpretation is provided below:
Title 14 ofthe Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) § 91. 117(a) provides that
unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft
below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 mph).
Paragraph (c) of this section states that no person may operate an aircraft in the
airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designed for an airport or in a VFR
corridor designate through such a Class B airspace area at an indicated airspeed of
more than 200 knots (230 mph) ..
Under § 91.701(a) of Title 14, the regulations of subpart H, including § 91.703, are
applicable to U.S. registered civil aircraft operating outside ofthe United States and
foreign civil aircraft operating within the United States. Specifically, § 91.703(a)(I)
requires that "Each person operating a civil aircraft of U.S. registry outside of the
United States shall when over the high seas, comply with annex 2 (Rules of the Air)
to the Convention on International Civil Aviation and with §§ 91.1 17(c), 91.127,
91.129, and 91.131." Section 91.703(a)(3) further provides that "Except for
§§ 91.307(b), 91.309, 91.323, and 91.711, comply with this part [91] so far as it is
not inconsistent with applicable regulations of the foreign country where the aircraft
is operated or annex 2 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation.·"
(Emphasis added.)
Our review of Annex 2 reveals no inconsistency with § 91.117. Therefore, when
conducting an operation outside ofthe US., which would be beyond 12 NM from
the coastline, operators of US. registered aircraft must comply with § 91.117.
Consequently, a pilot operating a US. registered aircraft in international airspace
below 10,000 feet MSL must not exceed an indicated airspeed of more than 250
knots (288 mph). When operating a u.S.-registered aircraft in airspace underlying a
2
Class B Airspace area, or in a VFR corridor through Class B airspace, the pilot may
not exceed an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).
You raise three points concerning the interpretation of § 91.703. First, you maintain that the
requirements of paragraph (a)(3) can only be read in conjunction with paragraph (a)(2)
[operations conducted in a foreign country] and not at all to paragraph (a)(l) [operations
over the high seas]. Second, you cite to FAA Order 7110.65, paragraph 5-7-2, which states
that "speed restrictions of250 knots do not apply to aircraft operating beyond 12 NM from
the coastline within the U.S. FIR in offshore Class E airspace below 10,000 knots." You
also cite to FAA Order 7110.65 and the Instrument Procedures Handbook, which state that
speed restrictions of250 knots do not apply to aircraft operating beyond 12 NM from the
coastline within the U.S. Flight Information Region in offshore class E airspace below
10,000 feet. Thirdly, you point out that air traffic control in numerous foreign countries may
authorize speeds in excess of250 knots below 10,000 feet to assist in flow control.
We find that our position articulated in the October 12,2005, letter remains the correct legal
interpretation of the applicability of §§ 91.117(a) and 91.703. We do agree with you that §
91.703(a)(1) applies to U.S. aircraft when operating outside the U.S. and over the high seas
and that paragraph (a)(2) applies to U.S. aircraft operating within a foreign country.
Paragraph (a)(3), however is a stand alone provision that is not linked or conditioned upon
paragraph (a)(1) or (a)(2). The provisions of 91.703(a) in summary are:
Section 91.703(a)(1) applies to U.S. aircraft when operating over the high seas
Section 91.703(a)(2) applies,to U.S. aircraft operating within a foreign country
Section 91.703(a)(3) requires U.S. aircraft to comply with all the requirements of
part 91, except for §§ 91.307(b), 91.309, 91.323 and 91.711, if consistent with the
regulations of the foreign country [if operating in a foreign country] or with Annex 2.
We understand that there are several agency orders that incorrectly apply the speed
restrictions requirements of §§91.117(a) and 91.703(a). The FAA currently is reviewing
the statements in those Orders and the underlying basis for the regulatory requirement. If
the conclusion is that the Orders or the rule should be amended, the FAA will do so
following the appropriate procedures.
Thirdly, we do direct your attention to fact that § 91.117( a) does contain a provision for the
FAA to permit a person to operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL and exceed the 250
knot restriction.
Lastly, we must clarify the interpretation in that while it is true that Annex 2, (Rules of the
Air) does not contain a speed restriction, Annex 11 (Air Traffic Services) does include a
speed restriction for certain classes of designated airspace. Annex 11, Chapter 2, paragraph
2.6.3. includes the requirements for flight within each class of airspace as shown in the table
in Appendix 4. In this Appendix, the speed limitation of 250 knows indicated airspeed
below 10,000 feet AMSL applies to VFR operations in Class C airspace and to IFR and
3
VFR flights in classes D, E, F, and G airspace. Consequently, the FAA requirement to not
exceed 250 knots when operating in international airspace below 10,000 feet is entirely
consistent with Annex 2 and Annex 11.
I apologize for the delay in this response. Should you have any additional questions, please
contact Lorelei Peter, of my staff at (202) 267-3073 of the Federal Aviation Administration,
Office of the Chief Counsel, Regulations Division, 800 Independence Avenue, SW,
Washington DC 20591.
s~~~¥~
Rebecca B. MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations

 

[Bus Driver]

I'm glad she cleared that up.

 

[mdanno808]

Ms. MacPherson should re read the FAR's starting with 91.1. She basically says that regardless of geographical location, all aircraft must observe part 91, and all of it's limitations (including speed restrictions). 91.1 (applicability) states, "Each person operating an aircraft in the airspace overlying the waters between 3-12 nautical miles from the coast of the United States must comply with 91.1 through 91.21; etc. So, outside of 12 miles, part 91 speed restrictions are not applicable nor enforceable.

 

[CMI]

I thought international airspace was uncontrolled airspace.

 

[igneousy2]

I had to read the regs 100 times before I have come to the conclusion that I agree with her. It was a painful conclusion as I have lived and taught the contrarary.

The regulations are very poorly written but they are what they are.

Here is my cliff notes version.

Part 91.1 states that you must comply with all of part 91 when over the united states and out to 12 miles regardless of the country of registration of your aircraft.

91.1 also states that you must comply with 91.703

91.703 states that if you are flying a US registered aircraft in a place other than the US then you must follow all of the rules of part 91 unless it contradicts the rules of the country you are in - which in the case of the "high seas" means there will not be a contradiction.

So...if you won't be violating a rule of the country that you are operating in then you must comply with part 91 including going 250knots or less below 10,000 feet. The only way around this would be if the country had a rule that said "maintain 300+ knots above 8,000 feet" or the controller gave you a clearence to "maintain 300 knots."

The rules are poorly written and need to be re-written...but it does say what the lady says it says.

Later

 

[Seadogrun]

This is really interesting. I was assigned 300kts the other day in the decent and to cross an intercetion at 8000 and 250. The controller expressed he wanted us at 300 and slow as late as possible. It was Miami approach, and the intercetion is more than 12 off.

The instructions were "Maintain 300 kts. and slow to cross 'intersection x' at 250kts."

Previous clearance was issued to cross "int. x." at 8000ft.

Has everyone been slowing to 250 below 10K when 12+ offshore?

 

[say again]

This is really interesting. I was assigned 300kts the other day in the decent and to cross an intercetion at 8000 and 250. The controller expressed he wanted us at 300 and slow as late as possible. It was Miami approach, and the intercetion is more than 12 off.

The instructions were "Maintain 300 kts. and slow to cross 'intersection x' at 250kts."

Previous clearance was issued to cross "int. x." at 8000ft.

Has everyone been slowing to 250 below 10K when 12+ offshore?

Honestly, we've been keeping 300 kts until the 12 mile mark below 10.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Honestly, we've been keeping 300 kts until the 12 mile mark below 10.

I flew with a guy that never slowed to 250 in or out of the us, until he absolutely had too. 10,000 didn't mean anything to him. He's still flying, violation free.

 

[regionalcap]

I flew with a guy that never slowed to 250 in or out of the us, until he absolutely had too. 10,000 didn't mean anything to him. He's still flying, violation free.

What did you do about it?

 

[igneousy2]

This is really interesting. I was assigned 300kts the other day in the decent and to cross an intercetion at 8000 and 250. The controller expressed he wanted us at 300 and slow as late as possible. It was Miami approach, and the intercetion is more than 12 off.

The instructions were "Maintain 300 kts. and slow to cross 'intersection x' at 250kts."

Previous clearance was issued to cross "int. x." at 8000ft.

Has everyone been slowing to 250 below 10K when 12+ offshore?

So I guess the new question becomes - "what is the interaction between 91.119 and 91.123" If the controller gives you "maintain 300 knots" can you do it?

In the situation you described - I am sure you did what the controller intended - however, if it were reviewed, it would be very easy for the controller to say that he did not intend for you to violate the rule and it would have been possible for you to comply with his clearence without violating the rule.

For example couldn't you have stayed at 10,000 until the last second at 300 knots and then dump down to cross at 8 and 250.

Not saying that's what I would normally have done, but it seems that that is what the rule requires.

Later

 

[Papps]

What did you do about it?

Tell him to put his beer down and bring back to at least 300 or less. for safety.

 

[Seadogrun]

So I guess the new question becomes - "what is the interaction between 91.119 and 91.123" If the controller gives you "maintain 300 knots" can you do it?

In the situation you described - I am sure you did what the controller intended - however, if it were reviewed, it would be very easy for the controller to say that he did not intend for you to violate the rule and it would have been possible for you to comply with his clearence without violating the rule.

For example couldn't you have stayed at 10,000 until the last second at 300 knots and then dump down to cross at 8 and 250.

Not saying that's what I would normally have done, but it seems that that is what the rule requires.

Later

You make a great point, but the only problem is that It's difficult enough to get the plane slowed down in a normal descent and it just won't slow in a steep descent. You are most likely right if it were to get reviewed. I wonder if the contollers have seen this letter.

 

[A Squared]

So I guess the new question becomes - "what is the interaction between 91.119 and 91.123" If the controller gives you "maintain 300 knots" can you do it?

91.119 will prevail. A controller cannot clear you to operate contrary to the regulations. This is stated in the AIM, reminding pilots an ATC clearance does not authorize a pilot to deviate from the regulations and that they are responsible for rejecting such a clearance. It is also stated in the Controllers handbook, reminding that they cannot clear a pilot to violate the regulations and that a pilot is obligated to reject such a clearance.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

91.119 will prevail. A controller cannot clear you to operate contrary to the regulations. This is stated in the AIM, reminding pilots an ATC clearance does not authorize a pilot to deviate from the regulations and that they are responsible for rejecting such a clearance. It is also stated in the Controllers handbook, reminding that they cannot clear a pilot to violate the regulations and that a pilot is obligated to reject such a clearance.

As the interpretation of the rule itself is relatively new, and this interpretation is misunderstood by the controller in this case, it seems that a call to the facility to clarify this scenario would be in order. There certainly is no reason to get into a discussion over the freq. Might as well slow down at 10k and if the controller has a problem with that, ask to speak with them over the phone.

No argument, just my humble opinion.

 

[A Squared]

As the interpretation of the rule itself is relatively new, and this interpretation is misunderstood by the controller in this case, it seems that a call to the facility to clarify this scenario would be in order. There certainly is no reason to get into a discussion over the freq. Might as well slow down at 10k and if the controller has a problem with that, ask to speak with them over the phone.

No argument, just my humble opinion.

No argument at all, I agree. I was just commeting on the general principle that would apply (which isn't new). Certainly, like you say it would be best to deal with the situation as professionally as possible and a call later to clarify would be a good idea.

 

[Lead Sled]

Aren't you guys always at 250 KIAS or less below 10,000'? If you ever doubt me, just ask me to say airspeed.

(Just Kidding!)

LS