speed in class B

[rk772]

Can ATC assign a speed faster that 250 inside class B, under 10,000ft?

 

[BoDEAN]

I don't think so. They would be putting you in a position to violate/break an FAR.

 

[groundpointsix]

FAR 91.117 does say that a person may operate in excess of 250 if so authorized by the administrator. I have heard that Honolulu approach will clear aircraft to accelerate once they are offshore. Can someone confirm that? If it's true, they (meaning the controllers) must presumably have an exemption from the FAA to allow this.

 

[JCJ]

There is a waiver for Houston

From the military NOTAM server - https://www.notams.jcs.mil

FDC 2/1957 - TX.. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED. PURSUANT TO A SPECIAL DELEGATION OF AUTHORITY TO GRANT WAIVERS TO CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS (CFR), PART 91, THE FAA SOUTHWEST REGION AIR TRAFFIC DIVISION MANAGER HAS WAIVED CFR 91.117A, (250 KNOT SPEED LIMIT) FOR DEPARTING AIRCRAFT IN THE HOUSTON, TEXAS APPROACH CONTROL AIRSPACE FOR THE PURPOSE OF TESTING THE EFFECT OF INCREASED DEPARTURE SPEEDS ON THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL ENVIRONMENT. NOTICE, AIRCRAFT DEPARTING FROM AIRPORTS IN HOUSTON APPROACH CONTROL AIRSPACE MAY BE AUTHORIZED TO EXCEED THE 250 KNOT SPEED RESTRICTION CONTAINED WITHIN CFR 91.117A, AT THE DISCRETION OF AIR TRAFFIC ONTROL (ATC). HOUSTON ATC WILL BE PERMITTED TO ASSIGN/ AUTHORIZE SPEED IN EXCESS OF 250 KNOTS TO DEPARTING AIRCRAFT USING PHRASEOLOGY "NO SPEED LIMIT" OR "INCREASE SPEED TO (NUMBER) KNOTS." THIS TEST IS FOR DEPARTURE TRAFFIC ONLY AND MAY BE TERMINATED AT ANY TIME BY ATC. QUESTION SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO HOUSTON APPROACH CONTROL, PLANS AND PROCEDURES DEPARTMENT, AT 281-230-8400. WIE UNTIL UFN


I have been told that waivers also exist for certain military aircraft (T-38) where keeping them below 250 might be unsafe because of the aircraft performance characteristics - although I do not know where that is published.

 

[redneck jihad]

In the past 2 years, I have been approved for "high speed" into JFK at 2:00 am by the approach controller, leaving IAD at 3:00pm by departure, and leaving IAH at noon by the departure controller. Also, twice going into Gray Army Airfield in the early evening by th Killeen approach controller (Class C).
So- I ain't real sure what the deal is. Best regards.

RJ

 

[JCJ]

"The Administrator"

Yes the FDC NOTAM I posted is indeed for Houston. My understanding is that the NOTAM was for information because they planned to routinely use >250 kt operations for houston area departures. I didn't interpret anything in the NOTAM to prohibit >250 kt operations elsewhere if authorized by ATC.

My understanding is that in the setting of ATC restrictions that include "unless otherwise authorized by the administrator" - ATC is considered a "representative of the Administrator"

So therefore my opinion (probably worth exactly what you are paying for it) if you have the ATC clearance to exceed 250 and you as the PIC don't have a safety or operational objection, you're good to go even if below 10,000 and/or in Class "B". I guess if you were uncomfortable with that you could decline the >250 kt clearance - and maybe get sent out to hold until you are min fuel.

As an aside since we are talking in part about HNL and IAH departures headed offshore the regulatory 250 kt speed limit does not apply once the aircraft is beyond 12 NM from shore (reference 91.101)

 

[Neal]

Speed

I have a friend who over his career ran O'hare, Pittsburgh and Tuscon control and I asked him this very question about 3 months ago because a controller approved me to exceed 250 below 10,000ft (I was at 4000 ft at the time). He told me that they absolutely DO NOT have the authority to do that. He said that you will be violating an FAR by doing that. It has to be approved by the sector "administrator" and your company for a specific flight or operation....with the exception of a few certain areas....and it is assigned to you/your company in written format.

Since that time I have been asked twice by a class "C" controller to exceed 250 below 10,000 (same class "C" both times). I asked the controller by what authority he is approving that.....neither time did I get a satisfactory answer and thus did not exceed the 250 below 10,000. Sometime I wonder if it was a setup!

 

[tarp]

JFK loves the 12 mile rule

As JCJ noted above, 12 miles off shore and your speed limit signs go away.

The NY approach controllers for JFK, love using that little corner of airspace offshore NJ to speed up flow or to squeeze in one more arrival from the south.

The controllers expect you to know the regs and fly as appropriate - i.e. when he says "best forward speed" and you are 12 miles or further out - keep the coals poured on. If you get to the 12 mile limit, slow it down or it's a bust.

How do you know you've screwed up? When the controller starts telling people to "slow" to 250 behind you for ....and then he names your type of aircraft.

 

[501261]

The key here is FAR 91.117. It says that a person may operate in excess of 250 if so authorized by the ADMINISTATOR.

That means FAA HQ, not local ATC. I know we like to think of the FAA as one big happy family, but its not. That means a letter from Washington, not “Joe” on 123.8 saying you can keep your speed up.

The administrator has given certain guidelines in which you can exceed 250 in Houston, or if your aircraft needs it for performance reasons. Off shore there are no rules so you can do whatever speed you want.

Regarding the 2AM examples, it’s kind of like running a red light at 2AM, if no ones there to see you it not a ticket. At 2AM in the approach facility the guy working you probably doesn't give a rats a$$ what speed your at, and the supervisor is probably asleep. So there's no one there to report a violation. Now try doing 360 kts at 8000' going into TEB at 5PM, you'll probably get a phone number to call.

 

[JRSLim]

AIM 4-4-11 has the answer

AIM 4-4-11 h.

'Pilots are reminded that they are responsible for rejecting the application of speed adjustment by ATC if, in their opinion, it will cause them to exceed the maximum inicated airspeed as prescribed by 14 CFR 91.117.......'

It goes on to say that pilots operating above FL100 at 250 are experected to comply to 91.117 and/or inform ATC if cleared otherwise.

And of couse there is the caveat regarding minimum safe airspeed, so that would be the only reason to exceed the speed limit.

Shaun

 

[AWACoff]

Just so everybody is on the same page...Class B and speed restriction do not belong on the same page. There never has been a speed restriction for Class B airspace. The 2003 edition of the FAR/AIM spells it out in plain language in the "changes" section.

 

[JRSLim]

I love this site....

Thanks ACoff

I reread the airspace info and thats absolutley right. No wonder it was so hard to find!
I do also see now, where AIM 4-4-11 j. does say that ATC can approve speed greater than the Maximum prescribed for C and D airspace and the note about BELOW class B but nothing about B itself. Makes sense now - neet how that reading thing works out.

Also let me ask...
I can't find the changes section in my Jepp 2003 FAR/AIM -- can ya help me out?

Thanks
Shaun

 

[JRSLim]

Oops --not so fast..

I just came across this in my travels:

FAR 91.117
a. specifies no person shall operate an aircraft below 10,000MSL at more than 250Kts indicated.

b. indicates the 200Kt limit for C and D then specifies an exception for B airspace to comply with paragraph a. which imposes the 250Kt limit below 10,000.

And of course, there is the caveat for minimum safe airspeed, and what itr says in the AIM about ATC authority-- and that only speaks of C and D airspace (surface areas). So it appears the Class B limit is 250Kts unless required for safety of flight-- confirming 501261's statement

Shaun, beating the dead horse

 

[501261]

Re: Oops --not so fast..

So it appears the Class B limit is 250Kts unless required for safety of flight-- confirming 501261's statement

No, not at all! We're talking 2 different things here.

There is a 250knot speed limit below 10,000MSL that only the Administrator can waive that (unless safety of flight). Whether or not you're in Class B is irrelevant.

Awacoff is absolutely correct there is NO speed limit within Class B airspace, it just so happens that most Class B airspace is below 10,000 thereby restricting speed under 91.117a to 250.

A classic example of this is the Denver Class B airspace. The Denver Class B goes up to 12,000MSL, and you can go up to Vmo/Mmo inside the Class B that is above 10,000!

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

I agree with others that say no speed limit below 10,000 feet in Houston. I've flown out of IAH to DFW and the departure controller will say "no speed limit". That means he wants us to go faster than 250 kts in the climb. That means in the RJ you can climb at the 335 KIAS Vmo (oops, did I say that, I meant 290 KIAS which is SOP). I was with one captain who responded to the departure controller with just a "Roger" and he only wanted to climb at 250 Kts. A couple minutes later the controller came back on and said, "SkyWest, say airspeed?" When he found out we were still at 250 kts he was mad and said if we still wanted to go 250 kts below 10,000 feet then we had to tell him, otherwise as soon as he authorized it then it was expected. They use the higher speed for getting departures out quicker and they plan spacing accordingly. I also agree about the class B speed limit. There is no speed limit in class B, just under 10,000 feet. Also 200 kts below Class B as well as within 4 nm and below 2500 feet of the surface of a Class C or D airport.

 

[The FNG]

Actually, CRJ200 Vmo is 330 to 8k...

Also, lest we confuse speed limit waivers, ATC CAN authorize speed greater than 200 but not to exceed 250 in C & D.

 

[ex208driver]

The speed restriction is for below 10,000' inside class b. I know Dallas class b goes 11,000'but at 10,000 you can go fast and begin accelerating above 250. In Houston they can waive this on the way out , they have the procedures and I am sure they will be implemented sometime soon about doing 250 below 10,000' when going into Houston when the traffic is light. The procedure has to be approved by the feds and then it will be published. They also know about the erj being limited to 250 below 8,000' and will say "when able no speed restirction". Also on a fed ride the faa inspecter had said they have been advised that atc was asking for pilots to go 201 to 250 under class b and this is a violation that they are enforcing . Also be aware of when you descend sometimes they will take you below class b and not tell you either. Just be aware and pay attention.

 

[WillyG]

Yes ATC can authorize speeds in excess of 250kts. I was flying in the Huston area last week near Contiental's hub and herd ATC say "no speed limit" when greeting multiple aircraft after checking in.

 

[ex208driver]

They leave you hanging up at 10,000' and expect you to slow when they descend you down. I have asked to go fast and also been told to delete the speed restriction coming in and they let stay up at 10,000' no big deal just a little faster descent rate to get down. Also talking about class b, beware at Chicago Midway on the descent to the northwest runways. Far enough out they pd you down below class b and not tell you. Also happens at Dallas Love field.

 

[FracPilot]

I have been told that waivers also exist for certain military aircraft (T-38) where keeping them below 250 might be unsafe because of the aircraft performance characteristics - although I do not know where that is published.

No waiver required. Far 91.117(d) states: If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.


If 255 is minimum safe airspeed, it's legal. If 350 is minimum safe airspeed for your aircraft, it's legal to fly that speed. You ARE required to notify ATC of any deviation from the speed limits.

The T-38 will fly fine at 250. Some fighters/recon aircraft will not unless dirty.