Southwest upbeat about growth after AirTran merger

[Full of LUV]

It's said as an appeasement....

Very true, which makes me wonder why some Southwest partisans have suggested it.

That way you feel better when a staple is floated..... well at least you get to hold onto your base (well your "current" flying at your base) anyways.....

 

[Max Powers]

Because that fence will protect your CURRENT positions in ATL. Growth will be realized by current SWA pilots...in ATL or anywhere else for that matter.

You're Right "growth will be realized by Current SWA pilots". AirTran pilots will soon be "current SWA pilots". Both sides will gain from this merger - SWA pilots will not get their much wished for windfall. Sorry not going to happen.

 

[SWA/FO]

Sorry not going to happen

Then, YOU tell us what is going to happen? Windfall = Tranny Pilots.

 

[Dash Power]

That is not a fence but a no bump or flush clause. A fence would do exactly as the word implies, it would fence off outsiders from positions or growth inside the fence.

Fences are not universally defined. They are established with specific considerations for the particular situation. Historically fences have been placed to protect a job for a stated period and then removed at different rates.

I have not seen a fence that prevents an airline adding gates or flights to a city a pilot job fence has been established. If there was a fence to keep pilot jobs in ATL, that fence would not prevent SWA from adding flights or terminating aircraft in ATL. The fence would likely just keep the company from affecting the current AT flying jobs for a period of times. I have seen fences of upwards to 10 years but can not recall the airline. NWA maybe?

It will take years to get all AT guys into training so there will be natural fences up until this can be accomplished. The Morris integration of 202 pilots took almost a year to complete. They started receiving SWA pay rates and benefits when they started class. I can imagine the same with the AT integration. It has been indicated by flight training management that the most new hires our school house can handle is about 700 pilots a year. With zero new hires that would take two and a half years to run the AT guys through the program. So with the likely hiring of new SWA pilots, it would take three, four maybe five years to get all the AT guys through training. I would think any fence agreement would fall within these lines of thinking.

 

[waveflyer]

That is not a fence but a no bump or flush clause. A fence would do exactly as the word implies, it would fence off outsiders from positions or growth inside the fence.

This is still thinking like hub and spoke... That's not what we do-
I usually don't see Vegas except for the first takeoff and last landing- even on turns- and LAS and PHX are two of the most hub like domiciles-

A standard turn is really a round robin- ie: LAS-SAN-SJC-LAS

Only a select few markets go and come right back in the same airplane

So how would this fence work w/ that?
It will all be so bojangled combined when it's all said and done- no one will have their impenetrable fortress fiefdom-

And we DO NOT WANT ANY GROUP WITHIN SOUTHWEST PILOTS TO BE ISOLATED- YOU WILL BE SOUTHWEST PILOTS FLYING IN THE WHOLE OF THE SOUTHWEST SYSTEM

 

[Kharma Police]

I will hopefully end my career in ATL, but let me reiterate, I do not think fences are a good idea for either pilot group.

 

[johnsonrod]

Then, YOU tell us what is going to happen? Windfall = Tranny Pilots.

Arbitrators will decide if there is a windfall or not. You had better hope you have good lawyers working with you, because ALPA knows how to do this by now.

 

[johnsonrod]

Fences are not universally defined. They are established with specific considerations for the particular situation. Historically fences have been placed to protect a job for a stated period and then removed at different rates.

I have not seen a fence that prevents an airline adding gates or flights to a city a pilot job fence has been established. If there was a fence to keep pilot jobs in ATL, that fence would not prevent SWA from adding flights or terminating aircraft in ATL. The fence would likely just keep the company from affecting the current AT flying jobs for a period of times. I have seen fences of upwards to 10 years but can not recall the airline. NWA maybe?

It will take years to get all AT guys into training so there will be natural fences up until this can be accomplished. The Morris integration of 202 pilots took almost a year to complete. They started receiving SWA pay rates and benefits when they started class. I can imagine the same with the AT integration. It has been indicated by flight training management that the most new hires our school house can handle is about 700 pilots a year. With zero new hires that would take two and a half years to run the AT guys through the program. So with the likely hiring of new SWA pilots, it would take three, four maybe five years to get all the AT guys through training. I would think any fence agreement would fall within these lines of thinking.

AT and SW will get a joint contract, and everyone will be paid via that contract when it is signed. No, they won't have to wait until they go to SW school or whatever. You think AT guys would have to wait 4 or 5 years to get SW benefits and pay? Riiiiiight. Where do you come up with this garbage? You need to think of this more like a partnership of "equals", because both of you bring a lot to the table. You sound like the Professor on Gilligan's island.

And NWA fenced Republic off of the 747 for 20 years. (my Dad was a NWA Whale Capt that retired years ago) And those AT guys are going to get a huge pay increase, and seniority list numbers among you guys, so you had better wise up and play nice. If not, you will be the ones that are miserable.

 

[Dash Power]

AT and SW will get a joint contract, and everyone will be paid via that contract when it is signed. No, they won't have to wait until they go to SW school or whatever. You think AT guys would have to wait 4 or 5 years to get SW benefits and pay? Riiiiiight. Where do you come up with this garbage? You need to think of this more like a partnership of "equals", because both of you bring a lot to the table. You sound like the Professor on Gilligan's island.

And NWA fenced Republic off of the 747 for 20 years. (my Dad was a NWA Whale Capt that retired years ago) And those AT guys are going to get a huge pay increase, and seniority list numbers among you guys, so you had better wise up and play nice. If not, you will be the ones that are miserable.

So your father must remember the Red book and Green book for their CBA?

We will become equals but not overnight. Common sense is that it will be a measured process. If you want to think that the AT guys are going to wake up one day and experience great gains in pay and benefits while holding on to their base seniority for an extended time, go ahead. This will not work that way. The Morris integration is a historical example of how SWA went through this process before and it worked well.

You have indication that a new contract will be negotiated. It will not. There might be some side letters (voted by sitting SWA pilots) for rules of the integration.

This will go as smooth as possible I believe, but anyone who does not see the power of the buying company is delusional. What ever is best for SWA, which from managements eyes also means their current employees, SWA will do. I am not talking about overall seniority here, I am talking about the security of a healthy company. And ALL SWA employees are concerned about this acquisition when it comes to our company today.

And what I heard about the ability of our lawyers, the AT union went for the ones we have and found out we retained them a year or two ago.

 

[Whataburger]

Arbitrators will decide if there is a windfall or not. You had better hope you have good lawyers working with you, because ALPA knows how to do this by now.

lol. Just like USair/AmWest?

 

[johnsonrod]

lol. Just like USair/AmWest?

Both were ALPA, and those lawyers went on to fight for NWA and DL. They are experienced and know how to do it. (The LAWYERS) That was my point. The SWAPA lawyers are out matched when it comes to SLI arbitration, and the guy who won it for America West then represented Delta, and won again. I bet he is being talked to by the AT ALPA people.

 

[johnsonrod]

So your father must remember the Red book and Green book for their CBA?

We will become equals but not overnight. Common sense is that it will be a measured process. If you want to think that the AT guys are going to wake up one day and experience great gains in pay and benefits while holding on to their base seniority for an extended time, go ahead. This will not work that way. The Morris integration is a historical example of how SWA went through this process before and it worked well.

You have indication that a new contract will be negotiated. It will not. There might be some side letters (voted by sitting SWA pilots) for rules of the integration.

This will go as smooth as possible I believe, but anyone who does not see the power of the buying company is delusional. What ever is best for SWA, which from managements eyes also means their current employees, SWA will do. I am not talking about overall seniority here, I am talking about the security of a healthy company. And ALL SWA employees are concerned about this acquisition when it comes to our company today.

And what I heard about the ability of our lawyers, the AT union went for the ones we have and found out we retained them a year or two ago.

My father knew a lot about the red book/green book deal. He was a 727 Capt when the merger took place, and flew with Republic FOs fairly soon afterwards, and treated them with respect right away. He told me they had plenty of discussions on the merger, but always agreed they themselves had nothing to do with the seniority stuff. That was thanks to the lawyers and arbitrator. You may want to start thinking the same way. The SLI will be done without your input. Lawyers will fight it out and then arbitrators will decide it. And, arbitrators will look at what is brought to the table, and then decide. The buying company doesn't always get what it wants.

And I bet those AT ALPA people are talking to a certain ALPA attorney that has a 2-0 record with SLI arbitration. How much experience do the SWA lawyers have with SLIs? You may want to look into that. Good luck to you.

 

[vixin]

[QUOTEBoth were ALPA, and those lawyers went on to fight for NWA and DL. They are experienced and know how to do it. (The LAWYERS) That was my point. The SWAPA lawyers are out matched when it comes to SLI arbitration, and the guy who won it for America West then represented Delta, and won again. I bet he is being talked to by the AT ALPA people.][/QUOTE]

I believe those are the lawyers SWAPA obtained 1-2 years ago. So they better not be talking to AT ALPA. SWAPA lawyers out matched themseleves. Great.

 

[vixin]

[QUOTE
And I bet those AT ALPA people are talking to a certain ALPA attorney that has a 2-0 record with SLI arbitration. How much experience do the SWA lawyers have with SLIs? You may want to look into that. Good luck to you.[/QUOTE]

To bad thats the 2-0 record the SWA lawyers have. LOL As for the experience, I guess that would be 2-0. You may want to look into that.

 

[johnsonrod]

I believe those are the lawyers SWAPA obtained. So they better not be talking to AT ALPA. SWAPA lawyers out matched themseleves. Great.

No, you guys got the ghost of Jonnie Cochran. And, if you did get those ALPA lawyers, wouldn't the current SWAPA lawyers feel bad? Were they crying? Why have any lawyers at SWAPA, when you can go out and get new ones from ALPA? LOL!