Southwest PIC question

[cherokee]

Wondering if I can get a good explanation of what counts as PIC for Southwest airlines. I have always heard that only time you were assigned PIC counts. However on the web site it says, -----"Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC.-----
So that makes it sound like if you're typed on an a/c and not the assigned PIC you may log the time you are the PF and have it count towards the 1000 hrs SWA requires. Also, does the first sentence above mean that you can log all your flight time when assigned as PIC under 135 in a King Air B200 even if you let the F/O fly once in a while...after all you were the Pilot 'responsible for the operation and safety of the a/c during flight' since you were designated PIC. Just wondering if knowlegable SWA folks can help clarify the issue...

Thanks guys

 

[SLOTH]

Try searching first.

This question has been answered numerous times, but to answer your question. Who signed for the aircraft? Unless it was you, don't count the time as PIC for SWA.

Sloth

 

[cherokee]

Well, I did go through about 500 posts and I still did not get a concensus answer. Aout half say only time assigned as captain, the other half say otherwise. Even the guys who apparently fly for SWA are split. Good God, it's grayer than the FARs. I was hoping to get a concensus from the guys who are actually working for SWA.

 

[FatesPawn]

Cherokee,

It sure would be nice if they just came out and said:

Only 1 pilot can be logging PIC at a time in an aircraft.

That would clear it up for most people.

 

[kelbill]

As another stated, if you are the big Kahuna (Capt), you log PIC, for every minute you fly the aircraft. So when the F/O has the controls in your King Air, you still log PIC. Now, since SWA was nice enough to add the BS regarding aircraft requiring a type rating, if you have one and the Captain doesn't, then go ahead and count the time as PIC as far as SWA applications are concerned. It is there in black and white on our website, so NOBODY can give you grief at the interview about it.

Being a military puke, I am confused about that particular scenario, assuming that if someone is flying an aircraft requiring a type rating, then THEY WOULD HAVE IT. So how can the F/O have it and not the Captain? I guess it depends on whether it is part 121, 135, etc, huh?

Good luck, get your app in, and keep building those unequivical PIC hours and get your interview.

 

[cherokee]

The scenario is that before I upgraded to Captain (part 135), I was a typed F/O who flew half the legs (from the left side). According to the SWA web site it appears to me that I can count those legs that I flew as PIC. However, a lot of others on this board say this time is not PIC since I was not assigned as Captain. I am captain now so now the time I fly is unequivical PIC, but I would like to know how to treat the time prior to the upgrade for the SWA app.
Thanks.

 

[Wankel7]

So, PIC time gained instrucing students that already had their private does not count?

Wankel

 

[English]

Cherokee,

It sure would be nice if they just came out and said:

Only 1 pilot can be logging PIC at a time in an aircraft.

That would clear it up for most people.

They won't say it because that is not what they mean.

I don't see why there's confusion - it's clearly notated on the website what flavors of PIC time you can log for the purpose of meeting their 1000 PIC turbine requirement. If you still have heartburn about it, call the People Department and ask them.

 

[Lear70]

Being a military puke, I am confused about that particular scenario, assuming that if someone is flying an aircraft requiring a type rating, then THEY WOULD HAVE IT. So how can the F/O have it and not the Captain? I guess it depends on whether it is part 121, 135, etc, huh?

DISCLAIMER: I DON'T WORK FOR SOUTHWEST (although I would LUV to) AND THIS IS JUST FROM MY KNOWLEGE OF THE REGS HAVING BEEN A CHIEF INSTRUCTOR FOR SEVERAL PART 61 AND 135 COMPANIES!

Kellbill: in the civilian world, the Captain must have the type rating if the aircraft requires one regardless of which part the operation is conducted under (91, 121, 125, 135). However, if the F/O was also type rated, under the Part 1 definition if the F/O is the sole manipulator of the controls (i.e. it's his or her leg to fly), he or she may log that flight time as PIC IF the aircraft is operated under Part 91 rules (Flexjet, Flight Options prior to their 135 switchover, and other corporate ops OR empty legs at 135 companies IF the operation is clearly initiated under Part 91 - confused yet? ). However, if you're operating under 135 or 121, you can't, which brings us to Cherokee's question.

I'm not aware of any company that would let you use the time you were not the assigned Captain on a Part 135 flight to log PIC time to meet the application minimums, even if you were the sole manipulator of the controls. It's my understanding you can only use the Part 1 definition for Part 91 flying as all other parts have designated PIC and SIC pilots for aircraft that require more than one pilot.

Wankel, I think you were being facetious, but just in case: the flight instructor scenario you provided is one of the exact reasons WHY the Part 1 definition exists. It allows BOTH the student and CFI to log PIC at the same time: the student is the sole manipulator of the controls and, being appropriately rated for the aircraft, is the acting PIC and can log the time towards their additional ratings, while the CFI is also acting as PIC (such as a student working on their instrument ratings under the hood in VFR - only the CFI can watch for traffic and is therefore still "responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft").

That said, don't be too sure about not getting grief from an interviewer, he or she may not agree with that interpretation and we all know what happens when you get defensive or combative on an interview.

 

[cherokee]

I agree English, but when you see so many people who say otherwise, it makes you wonder. I think the web site is clear in that the time I was questioning is valid PIC.

I see what your saying Lear70 but it never says anything about 91 or 135 on the web site. It just says if 2 pilots are typed, the one on the left and sole manipulator can log PIC. The PNF can also log PIC in this case since they are assigned Captain (135). At least that's what it looks like to me.

 

[English]

cherokee,

I know you've done a search and probably read my prior comments, but in case anyone else missed it, I'll share it again here.

A SWA PHX Assistant Chief Pilot came to my class at K&S and shared some info. Since I was the only corporate pilot, and everyone else there was military, he spent some time with me talking about the specifics of hiring as they relate to corporate pilots. He said to log all time spent flying in the left seat, if typed, in a part 91 operation, as PIC time. It was very clear. We even talked back and forth about various examples and he verified that was the intention. I later spoke with Lilah Steen at a job fair, and she said the same thing. She also said that if I ever had any questions about the hiring process, to call the PD, as they were very receptive to questions. They want to make sure everyone fills out the application correctly so there are no problems once you get to an interview.

If you have further questions, I would just ask them directly. Seems we've been bantering over this question for years.

 

[cherokee]

Yes, I did see that reply in a previous thread, however, I fly Part 135, not 91 as you state in your reply. It appears the statement on the SWA application page makes no distinction between the 2 so what you said about 91 operations should be the same for 135, right?

 

[English]

Nope. I was told it only applied to 91 ops, and not 135 and 121, since the regs for those ops would override.

 

[English]

On 135 and 121 flights, only the PIC assigned (whether PF or PNF) to the flight as the PIC can log PIC for the purposes of meeting SWA's PIC requirement. For part 91 ops, whoever is flying in the left seat, sole manipulator, and typed, can log PIC.

 

[NEDude]

For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC.-----

Just so I can be clear as mud about this. If I flew in the left seat of a Pilatus PC-12 and was the sole manipulator of the controls, but I did not "sign" for the aircraft -ie I was for company purposes the SIC (yes I know I cannot legally log SIC in a PC-12 and no I did not log SIC - only PIC and when I was in the left seat) - then for SWA purposes I can log this as turbine PIC?

If so it gets me 2 months closer to applying.

Thanks

 

[Lear70]

Just so I can be clear as mud about this. If I flew in the left seat of a Pilatus PC-12 and was the sole manipulator of the controls, but I did not "sign" for the aircraft -ie I was for company purposes the SIC (yes I know I cannot legally log SIC in a PC-12 and no I did not log SIC - only PIC and when I was in the left seat) - then for SWA purposes I can log this as turbine PIC?

ONLY if the flight was initiated and conducted under Part 91. Since any air carrier flight has a DESIGNATED PIC (Part 135, 121, 125, etc), if you're not it, YOU CANNOT LOG ANY TIME AS PIC, EVEN IF YOU'RE IN THE LEFT SEAT FLYING THE AIRPLANE!

You could be hauling checks in a 90-series King Air and the designated PIC could be a retired airline guy in the back asleep on top of the checks, and you're up front flying, but can't log a second of it as PIC... Sad, but true.

 

[Hawker rider]

pretty straight forward to me,

Under part 121 or 135 to act as PIC you have to have gone through the PIC-training from the certificate holder, so when you are manipulating the controls, while you are assigned as SIc for the flight under 135 or 121 you CAN NOT log PIC, simply because you are not in command.

Unde rpart 91 there are no additional requirements, besides having to be appropriately rated for the seat, so being pilot flying you can be PIC.

under the part 1 definition there can only be 1 pic during a leg. no difference between who is "steering" or not. can only have 1 commander on a plane!

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

The only time it is allowd to have two pilots logging PIC in the same aircraft during the same flight is when one pilot is rated in the aircraft and is getting instruction from a rated flight instructor.

This provision doesnt apply to the pilot flying..It really pretains to the CFI for legality purposes..

Mike

 

[Hawker rider]

Offcourse! wonderfull!

That's why JAA came out with a new command designation PICUS> pilot in command under supervision! I truly agree with them in this case, so that the student can not just log PIC, but it's a step down from it, because technically the student isn't the PIC... the instructor is.

How about my ATp then? it says that with an ATP I am allowed to train pilots too, another loophole for 2 PIC's on one airplane???

there's only one PIC on my airplane! whether it be me or not, there has to be only one commander!

 

[Snoopy58]

For the FAA, part (iirc) 65, you CAN both log PIC. For SWA, per Part 1, both pilots can NOT log PIC.

If your logbook shows your time receiving instruction as PIC, that's fine, but don't CLAIM that time for SWA. They want 1000 hours of TPIC when you are IN CHARGE, not 1000 hours turbine time "manipulating the controls." If you were THE BOSS, then count the time; if you weren't, then don't; if there was no designated "you're in charge" guy and whoever was in the left seat was IT for that leg, then you can count that time.

People can put whatever they want on the app, and justify it any way you feel up to it, but if the logbook checker doesn't agree with you that you meet the requirements, that'll be a bad day for you. If you weren't truly in charge, don't count it as PIC for SWA. Simple as that.

 

[SFR]

Bottom line:

If you are this uptight worrying about how log time (if you understand english it says it on southwest.com), then you are probably too uptight to work for SWA.

Who cares!!! log it, be happy and hopefully you get a call!!!

Good luck