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SONG Out of Business?
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acarpe3448
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I have not heard anything about this. I was just in Atlanta on Wednesday and meet with the ATL Chief Pilot and he did not even mention this was a possibility. Of course management does not call me up and ask my opinion on things. I find it unlikely. Nevertheless, Song is a part of Delta Airlines and if they did shut down they will give the customers notice and would probably just substitute a mainline aircraft to cover Song's flights. I sure hope this in fact is just a rumor.
On Your Six
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Wrong. Song just posted a profit - check out the post by General Lee last week. Any shut-down would be phased in over time I would imagine anyway (you can't just ground 30 Song-colored airplanes that could be generating needed revenue).
Who the he!! is spreading this rumor? As far as I know, the status of Song in the future is not fully known. Grinstein will discuss the future DAL strategy in July - until then, Song should be operating as normal.
Another lame rumor...
Who the he!! is spreading this rumor? As far as I know, the status of Song in the future is not fully known. Grinstein will discuss the future DAL strategy in July - until then, Song should be operating as normal.
Another lame rumor...
Hey a320driver,
Check out the post (conduct a search) that General Lee posted a few days ago. Song actually reported a profit (to everyone's surprise) and Grinstein actually talked about it... No joke.
Conduct a search and you'll find it - clearly nobody will misreport financial data in this ENRON (go to jail) environment....
Check out the post (conduct a search) that General Lee posted a few days ago. Song actually reported a profit (to everyone's surprise) and Grinstein actually talked about it... No joke.
Conduct a search and you'll find it - clearly nobody will misreport financial data in this ENRON (go to jail) environment....
BLUE BAYOU
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General Lee
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J3cubCapt,
What? Wrong. Song did make a profit (I posted the Dow Jones article) and John Salvaggio and Grinstein stated that Song would probably grow again. Grinstein said that at our recent CVG meeting---said 17 more 757 would go to Song. Salvaggio (the Pres of Song) also stated that at a recent recurrent training meeting with Song flight attendants and a couple Delta pilots thrown in there. He stated that Song was doing very well and was taking market share away from Jetblue. 17 more 757s will continue to do just that. Enjoy your trip.
Blue Bayou,
I know that mother D hasn't done well in awhile, but without the last extra pension payment ($325 million) that was paid early and really didn't have to be paid for 2 years (due to pension reform), we would have made an operating profit of $113 million--and that is supposedly our worst quarter historically. I know we have a debt problem, and that is our main concern now. The reason we are willing to negotiate for new pay rates is for the upcoming debt payments---but our operations are now turning a profit. The next two quarters are supposed to be really good for us---especially in the INTL arena.
A320driver,
I posted two different articles stating that Song did make a profit--and verified by Salvaggio. You are right though, those numbers are kept secret for some reason--but a "high source" stated it was true. I'd like to see the numbers too....
Bye Bye--General Lee
What? Wrong. Song did make a profit (I posted the Dow Jones article) and John Salvaggio and Grinstein stated that Song would probably grow again. Grinstein said that at our recent CVG meeting---said 17 more 757 would go to Song. Salvaggio (the Pres of Song) also stated that at a recent recurrent training meeting with Song flight attendants and a couple Delta pilots thrown in there. He stated that Song was doing very well and was taking market share away from Jetblue. 17 more 757s will continue to do just that. Enjoy your trip.
Blue Bayou,
I know that mother D hasn't done well in awhile, but without the last extra pension payment ($325 million) that was paid early and really didn't have to be paid for 2 years (due to pension reform), we would have made an operating profit of $113 million--and that is supposedly our worst quarter historically. I know we have a debt problem, and that is our main concern now. The reason we are willing to negotiate for new pay rates is for the upcoming debt payments---but our operations are now turning a profit. The next two quarters are supposed to be really good for us---especially in the INTL arena.
A320driver,
I posted two different articles stating that Song did make a profit--and verified by Salvaggio. You are right though, those numbers are kept secret for some reason--but a "high source" stated it was true. I'd like to see the numbers too....
Bye Bye--General Lee
dgs
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- Base airport
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- A320, B-707, B-737
General Lee said:
Two questions:
1. If the numbers are secret, how would Dow Jones or any news source know if Song made a profit? Aren't they just taking somebody's word for it? Who knows what the real numbers are, but with the ability to shift capital expenses to mainline, I wouldn't expect Song's books to show anything but a profit!
2. If all the JB flights to FL markets are full, how are we losing market share? His inaccurate statement about taking market share away from JetBlue makes everything else he says suspect.
I find Delta's attempt to compete with JetBlue somewhat misguided. We don't serve anywhere near the market Delta covers. If Delta focused those same principles to mainline service in other markets, instead of trying to compete directly with us, they might actually make some money and the entire flying public would benefit. The Delta and AA tactic of trying to squeeze out the upstart airline a) isn't going to work in this market, and b) will just hurt the legacy carriers at a time when they really need to be focusing on their market and their customers.
Just for the record, I think there is room for all the airlines to do well if they stay focused on the customer and what the customer wants. As long as legacy carriers ignore their customer's needs, there will always be a market for expanding JetBlue!
General Lee
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These days you have to be really careful what you say to the media--thanks to Enron etc.... Salvaggio was quoted that Song was profitable. Grinstein, who really didn't like the idea of Song in the first place---has made an "about face" and now likes it---probably after seeing the "numbers" himself. That is the truth. Do I know what the numbers are? No. Don't go after me--I just posted the two articles.....(why woud Grinstein say he will put 17 more 757s onto Song?)
MU2driver,
Think about it. There will be as many or more passengers flying this upcoming summer than the summer of 2000 supposedly, and we have parked all of our 727s, L1011s, and MD-11s. We have less big planes, and more small ones that are equal on the radar scope. We now have less seats available, fares are half, and fuel is more expensive. So, it looks like the only real way to bring in more revenue when the fares are so low is to have more seats on larger planes. RJs don't help that way--and now there are so many that we take delays (holds) in VFR weather or wait forever on taxiways waiting for takeoff with less seats available--and the same number of passengers. We are not bringing in enough revenue---or we could bring in MORE if we still had those larger planes. Everyone says the RJs are profitable---but that is because they are jammed full---but we could probably fill even larger planes and bring in even more revenue if we still had some of those larger planes. But instead, Fred Reid thought the RJs were the answer......Not when there are low fares and lots of passengers....This is primarily the fault of "Marketing" since they decide which airplanes fly where at our company. I don't blame the RJ pilots for this, and there are still some great markets for RJs, just not the ones directly competing with the LCCs....
Bye Bye--General Lee
MU2driver,
Think about it. There will be as many or more passengers flying this upcoming summer than the summer of 2000 supposedly, and we have parked all of our 727s, L1011s, and MD-11s. We have less big planes, and more small ones that are equal on the radar scope. We now have less seats available, fares are half, and fuel is more expensive. So, it looks like the only real way to bring in more revenue when the fares are so low is to have more seats on larger planes. RJs don't help that way--and now there are so many that we take delays (holds) in VFR weather or wait forever on taxiways waiting for takeoff with less seats available--and the same number of passengers. We are not bringing in enough revenue---or we could bring in MORE if we still had those larger planes. Everyone says the RJs are profitable---but that is because they are jammed full---but we could probably fill even larger planes and bring in even more revenue if we still had some of those larger planes. But instead, Fred Reid thought the RJs were the answer......Not when there are low fares and lots of passengers....This is primarily the fault of "Marketing" since they decide which airplanes fly where at our company. I don't blame the RJ pilots for this, and there are still some great markets for RJs, just not the ones directly competing with the LCCs....
Bye Bye--General Lee
Last edited:
General Lee
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Here you go DGS,
By Elizabeth Souder
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
NEW YORK -- Delta Air Lines Inc.'s (DAL) low-cost airline unit, Song, turned a profit in the first quarter, with operating costs 20% below that of similar operations at Delta's main airline.
"We had very strong financial results in the first quarter," said Song President John Selvaggio in an interview with Dow Jones Newswires. "April thus far is very strong, and May bookings are above last year."
Delta doesn't provide financial results for Song, which does about 10% of the airline's total flying. But a source at the airline confirmed that Song was in the black last quarter.
Song flies a fleet of 36 Boeing 757 airplanes on routes that primarily serve leisure passengers, mostly between the Northeast and Florida. Delta started the unit one year ago as a way to compete with low-cost carriers.
The unit's strong performance comes at a time when Delta executives are reviewing the company's entire operations to find ways to return to profitability. On Wednesday, Delta said losses for the whole company during the first quarter narrowed to $383 million from $426 million in the same period last year. Executives complained high pilot labor costs and reduced pricing power due to stiff low-cost competition kept the airline in the red.
Executives have said everything is on the table, and it isn't certain whether Song will survive the review as a distinct unit and brand. Song's profit would be an argument for keeping the unit intact.
At the same time, the first quarter is normally a good one for airlines that fly between the chilly Northeast and sunny Florida. Even though Song's load factors have been stronger than those of the main airline, President Selvaggio said the question of what to do with all those seats on the 757s during the off-season hasn't been solved. He is planning some special promotions for September, Song's toughest month.
"I'm confident that Song is going to fare well in that review," he said. "I'm very confident that Song will survive. I think we've established that a separate brand is accretive."
In a letter congratulating Song employees on their first anniversary of operations, Delta Chief Executive Jerry Grinstein on Thursday pointed out that Song has come up with some innovations that were adopted by the main airline. Delta has cut some costs by incorporating such Song ideas as boarding passengers according to zones rather than seats, selling food on board, and preparing planes more quickly for take-off.
"Song's leadership team has shared with me the positive first quarter results you have helped achieve, including operating costs that are approximately 20% below those for mainline 757's," Grinstein said in the letter.
Still, Delta has halted the growth it planned for Song, and Selvaggio doesn't expect the unit to expand again until after the review is completed in late summer.
By Elizabeth Souder
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
NEW YORK -- Delta Air Lines Inc.'s (DAL) low-cost airline unit, Song, turned a profit in the first quarter, with operating costs 20% below that of similar operations at Delta's main airline.
"We had very strong financial results in the first quarter," said Song President John Selvaggio in an interview with Dow Jones Newswires. "April thus far is very strong, and May bookings are above last year."
Delta doesn't provide financial results for Song, which does about 10% of the airline's total flying. But a source at the airline confirmed that Song was in the black last quarter.
Song flies a fleet of 36 Boeing 757 airplanes on routes that primarily serve leisure passengers, mostly between the Northeast and Florida. Delta started the unit one year ago as a way to compete with low-cost carriers.
The unit's strong performance comes at a time when Delta executives are reviewing the company's entire operations to find ways to return to profitability. On Wednesday, Delta said losses for the whole company during the first quarter narrowed to $383 million from $426 million in the same period last year. Executives complained high pilot labor costs and reduced pricing power due to stiff low-cost competition kept the airline in the red.
Executives have said everything is on the table, and it isn't certain whether Song will survive the review as a distinct unit and brand. Song's profit would be an argument for keeping the unit intact.
At the same time, the first quarter is normally a good one for airlines that fly between the chilly Northeast and sunny Florida. Even though Song's load factors have been stronger than those of the main airline, President Selvaggio said the question of what to do with all those seats on the 757s during the off-season hasn't been solved. He is planning some special promotions for September, Song's toughest month.
"I'm confident that Song is going to fare well in that review," he said. "I'm very confident that Song will survive. I think we've established that a separate brand is accretive."
In a letter congratulating Song employees on their first anniversary of operations, Delta Chief Executive Jerry Grinstein on Thursday pointed out that Song has come up with some innovations that were adopted by the main airline. Delta has cut some costs by incorporating such Song ideas as boarding passengers according to zones rather than seats, selling food on board, and preparing planes more quickly for take-off.
"Song's leadership team has shared with me the positive first quarter results you have helped achieve, including operating costs that are approximately 20% below those for mainline 757's," Grinstein said in the letter.
Still, Delta has halted the growth it planned for Song, and Selvaggio doesn't expect the unit to expand again until after the review is completed in late summer.
General Lee
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And DGS---Here's the original article. If you have questions--please call or Email the reporter.....
Delta's Song Unit Turns Profit In 1Q -Source
DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
April 15, 2004 10:44 a.m.
(Adds company source in the fourth paragraph confirming that Song was profitable in the first quarter.)
By Elizabeth Souder
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
NEW YORK -- Delta Air Lines Inc.'s (DAL) low-cost airline unit, Song, turned a profit in the first quarter, with operating costs 20% below that of similar operations at Delta's main airline.
Delta Chief Executive Jerry Grinstein pointed out the "positive" first-quarter results in a letter on Thursday to Song employees congratulating them on their first anniversary.
"Song's leadership team has shared with me the positive first-quarter results you have helped achieve, including operating costs that are approximately 20 percent below those for mainline 757s," Grinstein said in the letter. Delta doesn't break out Song's financial results or operating statistics.
An inside source at the airline confirmed that Song was profitable in the first quarter, going into the black in both February and March.
Song flies a fleet of 36 Boeing 757 airplanes on routes that primarily serve leisure passengers.
Grinstein said Song has come up with some innovations that were adopted by the main airline to cut costs, such as boarding passengers according to zones rather than seats, selling food on board and preparing planes more quickly for takeoff.
Grinstein is reviewing all of Delta's operations to find ways to return the airline to profitability. It's not clear whether Song will survive the possible changes as a distinct unit and brand.
Delta has halted some of the growth it had planned for Song. In March, Grinstein said of Song during a presentation: "I understand fully what a fighter brand is, and that sometimes you have to make an economic investment in order to hold off competition; that makes a lot of sense to me. But there's always a question of the price you're willing to pay, and I think we have to understand that more fully before we're willing to expand."
On Tuesday, Grinstein said he will present the results of his review to the board in late summer, and that he hasn't reached any conclusions yet.
-By Elizabeth Souder, Dow Jones Newswires; 201-938-4148; [email protected]
Delta's Song Unit Turns Profit In 1Q -Source
DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
April 15, 2004 10:44 a.m.
(Adds company source in the fourth paragraph confirming that Song was profitable in the first quarter.)
By Elizabeth Souder
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
NEW YORK -- Delta Air Lines Inc.'s (DAL) low-cost airline unit, Song, turned a profit in the first quarter, with operating costs 20% below that of similar operations at Delta's main airline.
Delta Chief Executive Jerry Grinstein pointed out the "positive" first-quarter results in a letter on Thursday to Song employees congratulating them on their first anniversary.
"Song's leadership team has shared with me the positive first-quarter results you have helped achieve, including operating costs that are approximately 20 percent below those for mainline 757s," Grinstein said in the letter. Delta doesn't break out Song's financial results or operating statistics.
An inside source at the airline confirmed that Song was profitable in the first quarter, going into the black in both February and March.
Song flies a fleet of 36 Boeing 757 airplanes on routes that primarily serve leisure passengers.
Grinstein said Song has come up with some innovations that were adopted by the main airline to cut costs, such as boarding passengers according to zones rather than seats, selling food on board and preparing planes more quickly for takeoff.
Grinstein is reviewing all of Delta's operations to find ways to return the airline to profitability. It's not clear whether Song will survive the possible changes as a distinct unit and brand.
Delta has halted some of the growth it had planned for Song. In March, Grinstein said of Song during a presentation: "I understand fully what a fighter brand is, and that sometimes you have to make an economic investment in order to hold off competition; that makes a lot of sense to me. But there's always a question of the price you're willing to pay, and I think we have to understand that more fully before we're willing to expand."
On Tuesday, Grinstein said he will present the results of his review to the board in late summer, and that he hasn't reached any conclusions yet.
-By Elizabeth Souder, Dow Jones Newswires; 201-938-4148; [email protected]
General Lee
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DGS,
If we can see that a large portion of passengers want lower fares only and entertainment at the same time, why can't we try to compete for those passengers too? If the low fare market is growing, then the high fare market is decreasing......We have to go after everything and try to make revenue. Our pay rates will probably go down, and Song's own flight attendants and gate people already make less. And, Grinstein did say 17 more 757s--and possibly West Coast expansion.....It might get really interesting if we can get our cost down----and I think we will eventually....
Bye Bye--General Lee
If we can see that a large portion of passengers want lower fares only and entertainment at the same time, why can't we try to compete for those passengers too? If the low fare market is growing, then the high fare market is decreasing......We have to go after everything and try to make revenue. Our pay rates will probably go down, and Song's own flight attendants and gate people already make less. And, Grinstein did say 17 more 757s--and possibly West Coast expansion.....It might get really interesting if we can get our cost down----and I think we will eventually....
Bye Bye--General Lee
AA717driver
A simpler time...
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Ok, now that I'm a customer instead of a non-rev, I'll comment on Delta.
I've done three trips on DL this month. IND-SAV-IND-SAV. I can't even buy a beer. They have their abbreviated beverage service on all these legs so it's coke, diet-coke, blah, blah, blah.
There is no such thing as a "full service airline" anymore. It's all the same.
They've been on time but it's been good weather.
If AirTran flew from IND to SAV, I've no doubt they would do it cheaper and with the same service. IMO.TC
I've done three trips on DL this month. IND-SAV-IND-SAV. I can't even buy a beer. They have their abbreviated beverage service on all these legs so it's coke, diet-coke, blah, blah, blah.
There is no such thing as a "full service airline" anymore. It's all the same.
They've been on time but it's been good weather.
If AirTran flew from IND to SAV, I've no doubt they would do it cheaper and with the same service. IMO.TC
On Your Six
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Hutcha and DGS,
Because of new financial disclosure rules (called Sarbanes-Oxley), executives cannot financially mislead shareholders - if they do they go straight to the slammer.... So, whatever Salveggio and Grinstein say in public about Song - it's probably correct regardless of your own negative opinion...
Because of new financial disclosure rules (called Sarbanes-Oxley), executives cannot financially mislead shareholders - if they do they go straight to the slammer.... So, whatever Salveggio and Grinstein say in public about Song - it's probably correct regardless of your own negative opinion...
The technical term used, since Song doesn't report their own financials is... FUZZY MATH.
Do I think Ch. 11 or 7 is in the future at big D... NO, unless management manipulates their way there just to shred the contracts. I think they are doing fine and will be well positioned as the economy heats up. It is funny that this report says Song is making money but I bet the financial news will be bleak when management comes to the pilots for cuts. Good luck to the pilots with negotiations.
Do I think Ch. 11 or 7 is in the future at big D... NO, unless management manipulates their way there just to shred the contracts. I think they are doing fine and will be well positioned as the economy heats up. It is funny that this report says Song is making money but I bet the financial news will be bleak when management comes to the pilots for cuts. Good luck to the pilots with negotiations.
General Lee said:This is primarily the fault of "Marketing" since they decide which airplanes fly where at our company. I don't blame the RJ pilots for this, and there are still some great markets for RJs, just not the ones directly competing with the LCCs....
Bye Bye--General Lee
No, this is primarily the fault of DL's high-cost, poor quality mainline product. DL was hemorraghing money at mainline, so they shrunk down to RJ's to reduce the hemorraghing. If mainline had reasonable costs and a good product, the reduction of mainline would not have been so extreme.
The sad thing about Song is that it actually makes mainline DL look even worse. Imagine flying Song from MCO-JFK, then connecting to a DL flight from JFK-NCE. What would you think of an airline that gives all the amenities to the low-yield customer on a 2-3 hour flight, while giving crap to the customer on an 8 hour int'l flight??
As DL converts more planes to Song and reduces the number of first class seats available, what happens to all of DL's business travelers who chose DL because of first class? Many will take their business to Airtran, American,etc and leave DL with the low-yield trash travelers.
It's going to be pretty hard for DL to sustain industry leading pay, if the only group of passengers they chase after is the low-yield tourist.
I think I've already got the new advertising slogan for Song,
"Fly Song, because you don't want to fly Delta."
P38JLightning
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Song v/s ComASA
Medflyer,
Good points, however the chances of a Delta customer getting to NCE on Delta is probably around 50% or less. Delta finally flies there every day again, but "code share partner sky team alliance member" Air Frawnse goes several times a day, every day, from Paris.
Of course Delta will be the ones getting you to Paris, right? Don't bet on it. Every Delta/AF city pair is either outnumbered or outgauged by AF. Many (Like JFK) by a massive margin.
I'm sure Delta resuming everyday service has more to do with the pending slam dunk international grievance that ALPA is pushing, claiming (rightfuly so) that Delta has been giving too much flying to the international "partners". Were it not for Delta pilot scope holding the company together, phasing out Delta international (and giving everything except a few London/Paris gravy routes) to the "alliance members" would be the topic of Jerry's brandy sniffing board room meetings instead of Song. Don't believe me? Just check out "Delta's" Pacific route structure. You can get anywhere in Asia, from any major city in America, just not on Delta.
General,
Jerry is admitting that Song is profitable. Cool. Now how come no one is calling him on it? I mean, he's saying Song is profitable and will see huge growth in the future, but yet they have the highest paid 757 pilots on earth, with the best work rules too, oh yeah, and a sweet retirement. Does he think no one will notice this? Where's the full page AJC ads exposing this labor bashing Jerryatric hack for what he is?
Of course now I hope you finally believe that Comair and ASA are profitable. Don't say "well we can't know for sure". Comair has almost identical costs (except 1-20% higher PILOT ONLY costs) compared to other DCI operators. ASA with their old contract is cheaper than Comair, and in line with the others. Why would we NOT be profitable? Oh yeah, higher pilot costs. Yep, that's the end all. Well except for Song and even Delta mainline. But for DCI pilot costs are paramount.
Don't even try that Song spends money on advertising or something. Song doesn't spend money on anything, Delta does. No numbers are available, but we have to trust the CEO's now because they speak from the heart cause they don't wanna go to the slammer, so when they say Song is profitable we believe them, but when they say ASA/Comair are profitable, well we suspect that.
Of course further proof that Song is profitable comes from Delta's decision to give them more growth aircraft. In fact, to grow them around 50%. They wouldn't do that if they were profitable. Of course when Comair/ASA are getting growth, their profitability is suspect. Of course management is punishing Comair for being the only pilot group so far (not including ExpressJet and ASA) to stand up to management and refuse to whore themselves for growth and fast upgrades, so you could say that Comair not getting any "growth jets" is indicative of us not being profitable.
Of course "our" CEO Jerry says we are. We're still getting 6 more 70 seaters this year. The DOT numbers say we're very profitable (unless you are charging that management is lying to the government?) and why would we not be? Oh yeah, higher (in some cases just slightly higher) pilot costs are to blame. Except for Song of course.
I agree with Jerry when he says more than 2.5 hours in an RJ is "crummy." But I don't know if he believes it. There he was talking about how he didn't like Song and was considering abandoning it, rah rah mainline. Now its a sudden about face and they're growing. Then he says he doesn't like RJ's. I immagine mainline pilots like to hear that. Gives them hope. He says this at a time when he's still ordering loads of RJ's, and also during a time when he's going all out for pilot cuts.
I wonder, if out of the OTHER side of his mouth, he is seeking "scope relief" from the restrictive mainline contract in addition to pay cuts so he can get more RJ's, larger RJ's, and less restrictions on the use of RJ's, all far away from the confines of the Delta PWA and pilot seniority list.
Nah, he wouldn't do that. He's a mainline man! Right?
Medflyer,
Good points, however the chances of a Delta customer getting to NCE on Delta is probably around 50% or less. Delta finally flies there every day again, but "code share partner sky team alliance member" Air Frawnse goes several times a day, every day, from Paris.
Of course Delta will be the ones getting you to Paris, right? Don't bet on it. Every Delta/AF city pair is either outnumbered or outgauged by AF. Many (Like JFK) by a massive margin.
I'm sure Delta resuming everyday service has more to do with the pending slam dunk international grievance that ALPA is pushing, claiming (rightfuly so) that Delta has been giving too much flying to the international "partners". Were it not for Delta pilot scope holding the company together, phasing out Delta international (and giving everything except a few London/Paris gravy routes) to the "alliance members" would be the topic of Jerry's brandy sniffing board room meetings instead of Song. Don't believe me? Just check out "Delta's" Pacific route structure. You can get anywhere in Asia, from any major city in America, just not on Delta.
General,
Jerry is admitting that Song is profitable. Cool. Now how come no one is calling him on it? I mean, he's saying Song is profitable and will see huge growth in the future, but yet they have the highest paid 757 pilots on earth, with the best work rules too, oh yeah, and a sweet retirement. Does he think no one will notice this? Where's the full page AJC ads exposing this labor bashing Jerryatric hack for what he is?
Of course now I hope you finally believe that Comair and ASA are profitable. Don't say "well we can't know for sure". Comair has almost identical costs (except 1-20% higher PILOT ONLY costs) compared to other DCI operators. ASA with their old contract is cheaper than Comair, and in line with the others. Why would we NOT be profitable? Oh yeah, higher pilot costs. Yep, that's the end all. Well except for Song and even Delta mainline. But for DCI pilot costs are paramount.
Don't even try that Song spends money on advertising or something. Song doesn't spend money on anything, Delta does. No numbers are available, but we have to trust the CEO's now because they speak from the heart cause they don't wanna go to the slammer, so when they say Song is profitable we believe them, but when they say ASA/Comair are profitable, well we suspect that.
Of course further proof that Song is profitable comes from Delta's decision to give them more growth aircraft. In fact, to grow them around 50%. They wouldn't do that if they were profitable. Of course when Comair/ASA are getting growth, their profitability is suspect. Of course management is punishing Comair for being the only pilot group so far (not including ExpressJet and ASA) to stand up to management and refuse to whore themselves for growth and fast upgrades, so you could say that Comair not getting any "growth jets" is indicative of us not being profitable.
Of course "our" CEO Jerry says we are. We're still getting 6 more 70 seaters this year. The DOT numbers say we're very profitable (unless you are charging that management is lying to the government?) and why would we not be? Oh yeah, higher (in some cases just slightly higher) pilot costs are to blame. Except for Song of course.
I agree with Jerry when he says more than 2.5 hours in an RJ is "crummy." But I don't know if he believes it. There he was talking about how he didn't like Song and was considering abandoning it, rah rah mainline. Now its a sudden about face and they're growing. Then he says he doesn't like RJ's. I immagine mainline pilots like to hear that. Gives them hope. He says this at a time when he's still ordering loads of RJ's, and also during a time when he's going all out for pilot cuts.
I wonder, if out of the OTHER side of his mouth, he is seeking "scope relief" from the restrictive mainline contract in addition to pay cuts so he can get more RJ's, larger RJ's, and less restrictions on the use of RJ's, all far away from the confines of the Delta PWA and pilot seniority list.
Nah, he wouldn't do that. He's a mainline man! Right?
H82BL8T
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2002
- Posts
- 25
As soon as Delta stops focusing on ‘taking market shares’ away from JetBlue and turns its attention to customer service and productivity (ooops, secrets out - again), they and other legacy carriers will have a chance to survive and maybe prosper. Leadership within management and unions don’t seem to understand these simple concepts.
I would not worry about Delta. They are doing the same thing that every other major is doing. They are crying poverty in order to renegotiate every contract that they have.
Delta's debt burden is no worse then AMR's $20 billion or the load that UAL will carry once the reorganize for the Xth time.
As far as Song goes, I have been opposed to the idea from the day it was announced but if it's making money and taking market share, then how can you argue with that?
I flew Delta last week, $625 one way from LGA-SAV. Their were three of us on the flight all paying the same price. It was the direct CRJ flt and it was completely full. I am positive that they made money on that flt.
Now that I pay for a ticket I will let you in on something
I could have gone to ATL and connected to SAV on mainline, all 757's. Not interested, I would rather suffer through the RJ and go direct, the same was voiced by my coleagues. So, service is not the driving force.
People don't care about service. Sure it's something that they consider BUT, they want CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP, then direct. In that order.
Business folks want DIRECT DIRECT DIRECT (the more frequency the better) then cheap in that order.
Service may be the determining factor if prices are the same BUT most folks will choose Departure/Arrival times and Departure and Arrival airports over service if the price is the same.
The other thing that helps Delta is the FF. Bottom line people like to think that they are getting something for nothing if the price is equivallent.
Service only ranks high among the folks who write the magazine and newspaper articles. I don't know one person who would say," the departure airport is not what I wanted, the arrivial time is not so great, screw the FF points, ah who needs direct flights, a connector that adds 2 hours to my day is ok" but because the service is good I will pay an extra $50 bucks. Let's be real folks domestic flying has turned into bus driving.
Delta's debt burden is no worse then AMR's $20 billion or the load that UAL will carry once the reorganize for the Xth time.
As far as Song goes, I have been opposed to the idea from the day it was announced but if it's making money and taking market share, then how can you argue with that?
I flew Delta last week, $625 one way from LGA-SAV. Their were three of us on the flight all paying the same price. It was the direct CRJ flt and it was completely full. I am positive that they made money on that flt.
Now that I pay for a ticket I will let you in on something
I could have gone to ATL and connected to SAV on mainline, all 757's. Not interested, I would rather suffer through the RJ and go direct, the same was voiced by my coleagues. So, service is not the driving force.
People don't care about service. Sure it's something that they consider BUT, they want CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP, then direct. In that order.
Business folks want DIRECT DIRECT DIRECT (the more frequency the better) then cheap in that order.
Service may be the determining factor if prices are the same BUT most folks will choose Departure/Arrival times and Departure and Arrival airports over service if the price is the same.
The other thing that helps Delta is the FF. Bottom line people like to think that they are getting something for nothing if the price is equivallent.
Service only ranks high among the folks who write the magazine and newspaper articles. I don't know one person who would say," the departure airport is not what I wanted, the arrivial time is not so great, screw the FF points, ah who needs direct flights, a connector that adds 2 hours to my day is ok" but because the service is good I will pay an extra $50 bucks. Let's be real folks domestic flying has turned into bus driving.
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General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
AA717driver,
First of all, Airtran doesn't go to IND. (not yet, anyways) Secondly, I just drive the boat---the people in the back that provide the service are probably all old--making top pay, and won't get more than a 3% pay cut. Does that seem fair to the pilots to have to take a 40% pay cut (over all) and the rest not really take any? Now you can see our point. I wish we could flush out some of the older ones and bring back the furloughed younger stews that enjoyed their jobs---but I am not in charge...
blahsmah,
The thing we are dealing with now is future debt payments. Our Dalpa team knows all of the numbers, and is on top of this. Our last quarter was OPERATIONALLY profitable---by the tune of $116 million for the quarter---the WORST quarter historically. But, we still paid $102 million for RJs that quarter, and will pay another $500 million for RJs next year alone. The problem here is that RJs are not the answer in low fare environments---and Grinstein is starting to realize that. The Song 757s can carry 199 passengers, and have quicker turn times. That, along with better utilization of aircraft(that is productivity-----not necessarily raising the flying cap hours)---can produce a lot of revenue. If you only use your aircraft 7 hours a day when Southwest uses theirs 12-13 hours a day---you have less chance of producing enough revenue to pay the daily expenses....(crew costs, insurance, daily lease payments....)
P38,
Yesterday in the AJC our MEC Chair Malone had a rebuttel (sp?) in the editorial page--and that was a good response. I also wish he would wage a larger media war--but he is doing more now than he did in the last couple months.
As far as who is profitable, in a low fare environment competing directly against LCCs---the RJs will lose. Can you make a profit on a 50 seat RJ when it has to compete at a $50 fare against an Airtran 717? Nope. Can you make a profit when your RJ is the only way to get to Peoria from ATL? Yes. The LCCs are growing, and the only way to squeeze out revenue is to lower costs (ie pilot pay cuts), and to fly larger aircraft with more seats. It has taken a while for Song to become profitable because most people had no clue who Song was.....Over Xmas and Spring break--people were FORCED to fly Song if they wanted to go to FLA from the NE--and I bet a lot liked it and will return. Jetblue took a while to become profitable too.
Did Jerry lie to us at CVG? I don't know---and he will have to back up all of that rhetoric with proof in his AUG plan if he wants us to vote for it. He had a lot of interesting things to say, and he admitted a lot of failures in policy--especially with the RJ use. He said people expected to go on mainline planes and instead were often put on smaller RJs and "that wasn't right." Was he just feeding us lines? Maybe. We won't vote for a plan that results in more lost jobs at mainline...He claimed more Asia flying, more West Coast (where he is from), etc....We shall see......
G4G5,
You can see the whole picture. We can too---and we see large debt payments also. We know that we must help with those, and we will offer help and hopefully they will accept it and we will move forward. The negotiating door is still open.
Bye Bye--General Lee
First of all, Airtran doesn't go to IND. (not yet, anyways) Secondly, I just drive the boat---the people in the back that provide the service are probably all old--making top pay, and won't get more than a 3% pay cut. Does that seem fair to the pilots to have to take a 40% pay cut (over all) and the rest not really take any? Now you can see our point. I wish we could flush out some of the older ones and bring back the furloughed younger stews that enjoyed their jobs---but I am not in charge...
blahsmah,
The thing we are dealing with now is future debt payments. Our Dalpa team knows all of the numbers, and is on top of this. Our last quarter was OPERATIONALLY profitable---by the tune of $116 million for the quarter---the WORST quarter historically. But, we still paid $102 million for RJs that quarter, and will pay another $500 million for RJs next year alone. The problem here is that RJs are not the answer in low fare environments---and Grinstein is starting to realize that. The Song 757s can carry 199 passengers, and have quicker turn times. That, along with better utilization of aircraft(that is productivity-----not necessarily raising the flying cap hours)---can produce a lot of revenue. If you only use your aircraft 7 hours a day when Southwest uses theirs 12-13 hours a day---you have less chance of producing enough revenue to pay the daily expenses....(crew costs, insurance, daily lease payments....)
P38,
Yesterday in the AJC our MEC Chair Malone had a rebuttel (sp?) in the editorial page--and that was a good response. I also wish he would wage a larger media war--but he is doing more now than he did in the last couple months.
As far as who is profitable, in a low fare environment competing directly against LCCs---the RJs will lose. Can you make a profit on a 50 seat RJ when it has to compete at a $50 fare against an Airtran 717? Nope. Can you make a profit when your RJ is the only way to get to Peoria from ATL? Yes. The LCCs are growing, and the only way to squeeze out revenue is to lower costs (ie pilot pay cuts), and to fly larger aircraft with more seats. It has taken a while for Song to become profitable because most people had no clue who Song was.....Over Xmas and Spring break--people were FORCED to fly Song if they wanted to go to FLA from the NE--and I bet a lot liked it and will return. Jetblue took a while to become profitable too.
Did Jerry lie to us at CVG? I don't know---and he will have to back up all of that rhetoric with proof in his AUG plan if he wants us to vote for it. He had a lot of interesting things to say, and he admitted a lot of failures in policy--especially with the RJ use. He said people expected to go on mainline planes and instead were often put on smaller RJs and "that wasn't right." Was he just feeding us lines? Maybe. We won't vote for a plan that results in more lost jobs at mainline...He claimed more Asia flying, more West Coast (where he is from), etc....We shall see......
G4G5,
You can see the whole picture. We can too---and we see large debt payments also. We know that we must help with those, and we will offer help and hopefully they will accept it and we will move forward. The negotiating door is still open.
Bye Bye--General Lee
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On Your Six
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2004
- Posts
- 4,507
G4G5,
I bet a 100-seater on that route would have been more comfortable than the CRJ and possibly more profitable... But DAL hasn't made any decisions on the 100-seaters yet. DAL needs to get its act together with regard to the 100-seater - like JetBlue and AirTran's discontinuance of CRJ service. Nonstop flights are better than connections in most cases - but I bet some of those CRJ passengers were not too happy with the cramped conditions for mulitple hours... The CRJ is the worst RJ from a passenger standpoint in my opinion - what's up with the low windows????
Delta needs a 100-seater soon....
I bet a 100-seater on that route would have been more comfortable than the CRJ and possibly more profitable... But DAL hasn't made any decisions on the 100-seaters yet. DAL needs to get its act together with regard to the 100-seater - like JetBlue and AirTran's discontinuance of CRJ service. Nonstop flights are better than connections in most cases - but I bet some of those CRJ passengers were not too happy with the cramped conditions for mulitple hours... The CRJ is the worst RJ from a passenger standpoint in my opinion - what's up with the low windows????
Delta needs a 100-seater soon....
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
On your Six,
Has Delta made a decions yet on the 100 seater? I bet they have. They have looked at every one of them and have test flown them too. This was done a couple years ago, but I am sure they have been waiting for the right time to order--like after a huge concession. I was told more than a year ago that the airbus A318 was the leading contender then---but then things have quieted down. I bet there will be a large concession made, then the senior guys will create another "Delta Express" style outfit for the junior guys---giving a lot less pay etc... There is no way Dalpa will give up any 100 seat flying--they will just screw the junior guys over and remain in their widebodies at fairly good pay--while the junior ones get a lot less and work harder. That has happened in the past(96 contract), and it will happen again.
Bye Bye---General Lee
PS---P38lightning---here is the editorial comments response from Malone in the AJC:
EQUAL TIME: Delta's pilots always ready to do fair share
John J. Malone - For the Journal-Constitution
Monday, April 19, 2004
A few short years ago, Delta Air Lines was earning record profits amid a booming economy. Today, the airline is fighting for its survival and no one is more concerned than its employees, including the pilots. Unlike corporate executives who have taken their "retention" packages and moved on, the pilots are tied to this company.
Since Sept. 11, 2001, pilots have agreed to amend our contract many times to help Delta save money and compete. By waiving a portion of our contract, we allowed Delta to enter into a revenue-generating domestic code-share arrangement with Northwest and Continental. Another waiver permitted Delta to operate Song, an "airline within an airline." Thousands of U.S. troops were flown to war by Delta pilots after we amended our contract to make it easier for Delta to do this.
All of these concessions pale in comparison to the bailout package the pilots have been offering for almost a year. Our continual efforts to help over this period have been met with "all or nothing" demands from management. Regardless, we will continue to try to do our part to help the company.
Labor is just one part of the recovery equation. The pilots' union has offered hundreds of millions of dollars even though Delta has shown no evidence of a business plan that will enable it to compete effectively within the airline industry. Even those network carriers that have obtained worker concessions have yet to become profitable.
One only has to look at the losses incurred at United, American and U.S. Airways to see that labor alone cannot turn the tide. While it's easy to point to employee salaries, the "low hanging fruit," when a company is losing money, cutting labor costs alone is not the answer. An effective strategy must also include the elements that historically have set Delta apart from its competition, such as customer service and employee morale.
Much of the outcry over Delta's situation emanates from parties with absolutely no stake in the airline's recovery. We, the employees, have the most to lose should our airline not survive.
We didn't create the current situation, and only the most uninformed observer would conclude we can solve it by our givebacks alone.
We will continue to negotiate our participation in Delta's recovery as we always have --- in a businesslike manner, with the interests of the pilots, our fellow employees and our passengers foremost in mind.
John J. Malone, a Delta captain, chairs the airline's pilot union.
Has Delta made a decions yet on the 100 seater? I bet they have. They have looked at every one of them and have test flown them too. This was done a couple years ago, but I am sure they have been waiting for the right time to order--like after a huge concession. I was told more than a year ago that the airbus A318 was the leading contender then---but then things have quieted down. I bet there will be a large concession made, then the senior guys will create another "Delta Express" style outfit for the junior guys---giving a lot less pay etc... There is no way Dalpa will give up any 100 seat flying--they will just screw the junior guys over and remain in their widebodies at fairly good pay--while the junior ones get a lot less and work harder. That has happened in the past(96 contract), and it will happen again.
Bye Bye---General Lee
PS---P38lightning---here is the editorial comments response from Malone in the AJC:
EQUAL TIME: Delta's pilots always ready to do fair share
John J. Malone - For the Journal-Constitution
Monday, April 19, 2004
A few short years ago, Delta Air Lines was earning record profits amid a booming economy. Today, the airline is fighting for its survival and no one is more concerned than its employees, including the pilots. Unlike corporate executives who have taken their "retention" packages and moved on, the pilots are tied to this company.
Since Sept. 11, 2001, pilots have agreed to amend our contract many times to help Delta save money and compete. By waiving a portion of our contract, we allowed Delta to enter into a revenue-generating domestic code-share arrangement with Northwest and Continental. Another waiver permitted Delta to operate Song, an "airline within an airline." Thousands of U.S. troops were flown to war by Delta pilots after we amended our contract to make it easier for Delta to do this.
All of these concessions pale in comparison to the bailout package the pilots have been offering for almost a year. Our continual efforts to help over this period have been met with "all or nothing" demands from management. Regardless, we will continue to try to do our part to help the company.
Labor is just one part of the recovery equation. The pilots' union has offered hundreds of millions of dollars even though Delta has shown no evidence of a business plan that will enable it to compete effectively within the airline industry. Even those network carriers that have obtained worker concessions have yet to become profitable.
One only has to look at the losses incurred at United, American and U.S. Airways to see that labor alone cannot turn the tide. While it's easy to point to employee salaries, the "low hanging fruit," when a company is losing money, cutting labor costs alone is not the answer. An effective strategy must also include the elements that historically have set Delta apart from its competition, such as customer service and employee morale.
Much of the outcry over Delta's situation emanates from parties with absolutely no stake in the airline's recovery. We, the employees, have the most to lose should our airline not survive.
We didn't create the current situation, and only the most uninformed observer would conclude we can solve it by our givebacks alone.
We will continue to negotiate our participation in Delta's recovery as we always have --- in a businesslike manner, with the interests of the pilots, our fellow employees and our passengers foremost in mind.
John J. Malone, a Delta captain, chairs the airline's pilot union.
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