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Someone please explain.....

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Flooder305

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 20, 2002
Posts
61
I must be missing something... How is UAL/DAL/soon to be every other carrier dumping the pension plans, not the exact same thing as the Enron scandal, just in a different sector of society/business?

These companies signed an agreement... Used to be people lived and died by what they signed their name to. Every dividend those companies have paid, has come off the backs/the lives of those retirees. It almost seems that the shareholders should have to pony up for the retirees, not the other way around.... Why should they act responsibly to the shareholders now, after so long of pissing their real equity away?

What is a 60+ year old guy going to do now, to reinvent himself to make up for the lost retirement income. I remember when Enron went down, they showed all these poor retirees who got scammed, well what's the difference I ask?

PBGC? You've got to be kidding when they are stepping in....I didn't make the mistakes that UAL/DAL/the others mgmt. made. But here I am shouldering the load with the rest of America, including the retirees am I right?

I'm not in this boat, but I sure believe, that when you affect peoples lives in this manner, people who are in the sunset of their lives, there is CRIMINAL negligence involved, and there should be PROSECUTION. Just like ENRON.

I would almost go so far as to suggest an immediate court ordered Ch. 7 in order to pay, not the creditors who should bear more responsibility for their stake in not holding these companies accountable for the use of their assets, but the pensions of the working men and women who worked for the "MAN", and were unfairly dealt with, and will now pay for someone else's transgressions.

Please tell me why I'm wrong, and what I'm missing, because this is what I feel when I see and hear this going on....
 
Flooder305 said:
I must be missing something... How is UAL/DAL/soon to be every other carrier dumping the pension plans, not the exact same thing as the Enron scandal, just in a different sector of society/business?

To put it bluntly, you and the majority of others on this board voted Republican. That's what it all boils down to. The naysayers will come after me and say "The other guy coulcn't do it any better!" and all that crap. But the righties always favor business over the little guy. It's been proven time and time again.

Vote deomcrat next year and see your life change for the better.
 
Flooder305 said:
I must be missing something... How is UAL/DAL/soon to be every other carrier dumping the pension plans, not the exact same thing as the Enron scandal, just in a different sector of society/business?

Flooder,

Difference is Enron was a fraud, plain and simple. That's why people are going to jail. UAL, DAL, USA, NWA et. al. just failed to evolve. Stupid, but nobody is going to jail. And there's plenty of blame for that failure. The writing was on the wall for all legacy carriers in 1991 when US Airways abandoned their west coast operation, aquired via PSA, at a cost of some $600M just three years earlier. The competition was to stiff. Others ran too. Not one of the failed carriers has built the trust which leads to cooperation which leads to innovation which leads to profit. AA has come close and AWA seems on the track with the USA merger as the biggest obsticale. Labor met most attempts to do so with scepticism. Not helpful when trust is the goal. Like I said, plenty of blame to go around.

The distinction between fraud and failure is the difference between airlines and Enron.

Just my opinion,
caseyd
 
Flooder,

I dont equate it with Enron, but at some point the airlines with DBs need to face up to their obligations.

The DB contributions have been nothing more than a slush fund for years for these airlines. Mgmt had a choice--make the contributions as they came due, or put the money elsewhere (their pockets, bonus, new airplanes). They made their bed, and now they find themselves sleeping in it.

There is only so much debt the PBGC will be able to withstand before it is overrun and the burden is ultimately put on the US taxpayer--you and me.

This is not a slam on anyone working for/retired from any of these airlines--anything but. You have worked long and hard and should get the money that was promised to you. Im having a tough enough time saving for my own retirement, and I dont think its fair that I may have to one day fund the PBGC's payouts.

I dont know what the solution is. To me, the reforms Ive heard proposed to congress only seem to perpetuate the problem but on the next generation. If you give these airlines another 15 years to meet their obligations, what do you think were going to be talking about in another 15 years?

Its clear to me that big business ala GECAS, AMEX, Chase, JP,etc and politicians control the pre-OCT 17 BK 11 process.
 
Last edited:
Okay, Caseyd your response was well put, and I agree with you that it was fraud versus failure, but shouldn't they be expected to pay for that failure, instead of pawning it off on everyone else?
 
turbodriver said:
To put it bluntly, you and the majority of others on this board voted Republican. That's what it all boils down to. The naysayers will come after me and say "The other guy coulcn't do it any better!" and all that crap. But the righties always favor business over the little guy. It's been proven time and time again.

Vote deomcrat next year and see your life change for the better.

You know the airlines just started going to crap right when George Bush was elected. I think you are right I am going to vote deomcrat next year, and deomcrat for the rest of my life. I now love the DEOMCRAT's.

All kidding aside............there is no reason to bring politics into this, it is way beyond politics. Each airline management team has to take responsibility. This has gone on through many administrations, both democrat and republican.
 
Flooder305 said:
Okay, Caseyd your response was well put, and I agree with you that it was fraud versus failure, but shouldn't they be expected to pay for that failure, instead of pawning it off on everyone else?

Who is "they"? If the airlines could pay for it they would and they'd not be in the tank. Bottom line is this: negotiated language, be it pay, benefits or pensions are only as secure as the guaranteeing entity. This is the single largest reason labor should embrace "genuine" attempts by managers to craft such a culture . And it seems to be lost on both to often.

As to your question, I don't think you can get blood from a turnip. So labor needs to insure, to the extend possible, that the airline does not become a turnip. But it requires thought. And that thought is what is so often missing or dismissed by the just say no gang who cross their fingers and hopes for the best. So often with disasterous results.

The industry is in transition, a huge seachange. Whomever get's it first, and can persuade labor to come along, stands to mirror the success many envy at SWA.

I'm clueless as to whom is likely to do so.

Regards,
caseyd
 
Anyone who thinks one party or the next will change our lives for the better is so naive they shouldn't be allowed to drive, let alone vote.

Politicians generally enter office with modest personal wealth, great hair and a perfect smile. They leave a few terms later worth millions. Gee, how's that work?

They don't give a crap about you or me--just as long as they get one more vote than the next guy so they can pack bills with pork for their state or district and get re-elected to the 'trough'. They get juicy contracts for their donors and friends and get their wives (who possess mere B.A. degrees in art appreciation :rolleyes:) appointed to boards of directors. Gee, how's that work?

Sorry for the mini-hijack but telling us any politician will make our lives better isn't even funny anymore. Your naivete is disgusting.TC
 
AA717driver said:
telling us any politician will make our lives better isn't even funny anymore. Your naivete is disgusting.TC

Now that's funny!!!!
 

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