so when is going to end????

[CFIse]

You don't want a pension - all a pension does is leave the money with the company and you hope they don't lose it. A hope that any number of US Air, United and soon to be DAL and NWA pilots will tell you isn't a great idea.

You want your retirement money given to you so you can look after it - you'd like the company to offer matching contributions as high as possible, but you want the money under your control after every paycheck - so then when the company goes bust (not if but when, when the fuel hedging at SWA dies out we'll see who's the LCC then) at least you have your retirement money.

Nope - a pension is NOT a good idea.

 

[klhoard]

You don't want a pension - all a pension does is leave the money with the company and you hope they don't lose it. A hope that any number of US Air, United and soon to be DAL and NWA pilots will tell you isn't a great idea.

You want your retirement money given to you so you can look after it - you'd like the company to offer matching contributions as high as possible, but you want the money under your control after every paycheck - so then when the company goes bust (not if but when, when the fuel hedging at SWA dies out we'll see who's the LCC then) at least you have your retirement money.

Nope - a pension is NOT a good idea.

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Kinda like privatizing Social Security??? . . .
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[ivauir]

I am pi$$ed about what is going on right now. The judge for US Air said theat the 12 million payout to the top 11 execs there is "in line with industry average" ... I guess gutting the pensions and multiple pay concessions is "in line with industry average" too.

The manegment at the legacies has lobbied to be allowed to underfund your pensions, then they shop for a judge to declare BK with. Judge declares that the pilots must take a pay cut while mgt gets a raise and that the pensions are too onerous. Next another legacy goes Chapt 11 and the judge there uses the first judge's rulling for a precident. It is bogus (not my word of choice) that they can terminate pensions that have been earned and use that money to run a failed business plan for another six months. At the very least the money that was in the pensions (underfunded as they were) should have gone to the employees.

I know some or maybe most legacy guys blame us (SWA), but wouldn't we just be where you are now if we'd copied you? Over the years there have been calls for a DB plan here, just like there have been calls for all hard pay (no profitability raise or options). In the end we negotitate what we can with an eye on the future viability of the company. We've been very lucky and our manegment team has dealt with us in good faith. I agree that Herb saw a DB plan as unsupportable over the lifetime of the company and was unwilling to promise what he couldn't deliver. IMHO that is the way it should be.

 

[Ty Webb]

you'd like the company to offer matching contributions as high as possible, but you want the money under your control after every paycheck - .

I agree, but want to point out that it doesn't have to be company "matching", per se. At my carrier, for example, the company makes a contribution to your retirement account that equals 10.5% of your pay. It doesn't matter how much you contribute. So, technically, it's not a match, they are just contributing.

It sounds obvious, but I still get people saying that AirTran doesn't match. That's right, they don't, it's better than matching, because I can only contribute $13,000 a year, while their contribution is unlimited.

 

[bafanguy]

It all starts at the top. You need to start holding these people accountable for their actions.

mdf,

Agreed, but the problem comes in how this is accomplished. For example, at the last DL stockholder meeting here in ATL, several motions ( by employee stockholders ) to hold mgmt accountable and tie their pay to performance, or limit their compensation were put up for vote only to be voted down by stockholders.

How do you overcome that ?

 

[apdsm]

Also remember pension problems are not unique to the aviation industry.


http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2003/commentary030625bm.htm

 

[mdf]

mdf,

Agreed, but the problem comes in how this is accomplished. For example, at the last DL stockholder meeting here in ATL, several motions ( by employee stockholders ) to hold mgmt accountable and tie their pay to performance, or limit their compensation were put up for vote only to be voted down by stockholders.

How do you overcome that ?

I knew someone would ask, and I have no easy answer. I will say this. I am tired of listening to the media talk about the airline bloodbath, and all the problems with the industry. In my opinion they should be talking about The UAL/NWA/Delta story. About how long these airlines have been in business, how they helped build the air transportation industry, and how they got where they are sans high energy prices and overcapacity. IMHO these companies should be hurting because of the business enivironment, but not to the extent they are in now. Legacy mgt. operates like mutual fund mgt. They all do the same thing so when the crap hits the fan they point to the guy next door, and say he's in the same situation. Then they point to LCC's, and say it is there fault. Then they go after labor while lining their pockets. After all of that they probably go to the club and giggle over brandy and cigars.

 

[bafanguy]

I knew someone would ask, and I have no easy answer. I will say this. I am tired of listening to the media talk about the airline bloodbath, and all the problems with the industry. In my opinion they should be talking about The UAL/NWA/Delta story. About how long these airlines have been in business, how they helped build the air transportation industry, and how they got where they are sans high energy prices and overcapacity. IMHO these companies should be hurting because of the business enivironment, but not to the extent they are in now. Legacy mgt. operates like mutual fund mgt. They all do the same thing so when the crap hits the fan they point to the guy next door, and say he's in the same situation. Then they point to LCC's, and say it is there fault. Then they go after labor while lining their pockets. After all of that they probably go to the club and giggle over brandy and cigars.

mdf,

I hear ya. But this comes down to the same thing that has driven business as long as there has been such a thing as "business", the Golden Rule: He with the most gold...rules. I'm sure that will never change and maybe it shouldn't. That call would be way beyond me. Maybe it's just inherent in capitalism, which I would not vote to change.

 

[CFIse]

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Kinda like privatizing Social Security??? . . .

Well in theory - and it's just a theory - the government doesn't go away. So weird as it may seem I'm against SS privatization because I don't think, in the long term, the government, which is far more concerned about re-election than fiscal responsibility will let SS die, while I think we've seen that private companies don't really give a rat's rear end and will shoot DB pensions at the drop of a hat.

But that's just me

 

[CFIse]

I agree, but want to point out that it doesn't have to be company "matching", per se. At my carrier, for example, the company makes a contribution to your retirement account that equals 10.5% of your pay. It doesn't matter how much you contribute. So, technically, it's not a match, they are just contributing.

Well that rocks - I've never run into such a plan - but I wish I had