So I got the job now what?

[User546]

It was just a matter of time before this turned into a "You can't log SIC in a CJ" thread.

Stop and ask yourself. Do you think every qualified co-pilot in a CJ1 / CJ2 is doing it without the benefit of being able to log it? Sure theres some out there, but a lot of business and corporations have CJ's as part of their flight departments. Do you think a co-pilot is going to work for a company for 2 or 3 years without being able to log any of the time?

Just follow the SIC requirements outlined in Part 61, and/or make sure the company has it written in their ops manual that a second pilot is required by your operations. There should be no questions or problems about it then. Our company just had another pilot with a load of CJ2 SIC time go onto a larger corporate job. It must've counted for something, cause his total time wouldn't have been much without it.

 

[English]

Just curious....what's the Captain doing all this time while the FO does all the work? That's not how I run my ship. Two pilots are required...share the load. Doing the flight planning, filing, checking weather, paying the bill, etc....takes 15 minutes(unless International, then it depends on where you're going). I fly with many FO's that are suprised when I actually do the preflight, get the cabin ready, do the numbers/clearance, or anything other than sit in the FBO really. That's pretty sad...it shows what most of the other Captains are doing.

Wow. If the preflight, cabin prep and clearance is all that needs to be done to prepare your aircraft for a trip, you must be something special.

 

[cezzna]

If you have two qualified pilots flying the airplane the guy in the right seat actually does alot more work. Radios, Atis, when to pull charts, fiddling with the radar, checklists, FMS management, backing up the FMS with raw data. It's a juggling match and you have to anticipate when to do all of these things and more. You won't be able to at first, but eventually you will be expected to manage this stuff without being babysitted. The left seater is usually busy with the actual control of the airplane and if concentrating intently can be a bit more out of the loop. Where i work we seat swap and all are typed. When I'm in the right seat sometimes I work my A$$ off. This is especially true on short legs on the east coast. TEB to somewhere within 100 miles for example. You'll get re-routes galore and you in the right seat get to manage them. Congrats and good luck

 

[BushwickBill]

Ok guys thanks for all the help. And thank you Dinger for offering the matierials, really cool of you. I will PM you to find out what you've got. I have all the FSI stuff for initial type rating from one of the pilots. So I'm guessing that should cover it.

I'll update you guys after the first trip. Tommorow! I'm hoping we can keep this thread going to keep other poor starving CFI from giving up hope. It may help others if they get lucky too.

 

[HMR]

I'm hoping we can keep this thread going to keep other poor starving CFI from giving up hope.

Does this mean they're paying you enough not to be a poor, starving CJ F/O?


Have fun on your trip!

 

[User546]

Does this mean they're paying you enough not to be a poor, starving CJ F/O?

Ahh come on, I make good money as an F/O on a CJ/2!

Have fun on your trip as well, and let us know how it goes! You'll defintely remember this first trip in a jet the rest of your flying career!

 

[FracCapt]

Wow. If the preflight, cabin prep and clearance is all that needs to be done to prepare your aircraft for a trip, you must be something special.

Either you didn't read my post, or your reading comprehension is very poor. Why don't you enlighten me on everything that you have to do....since I'm so new to this whole jet PIC thing...

 

[English]

Are you a fractional pilot? If so, your responsibilities are DIFFERENT (and probably a lot fewer) than those of a corporate or charter pilot.

But thanks for the insults anyway. I'm sorry you are having a bad day.

 

[FracCapt]

Are you a fractional pilot? If so, your responsibilities are DIFFERENT (and probably a lot fewer) than those of a corporate or charter pilot.

Ahh....I guess I have it pretty good then. Please, enlighten me. I'm not TRYING to be a d!ck....I just naturally come across that way. I don't mince words, though..

But thanks for the insults anyway. I'm sorry you are having a bad day.

Actually, I'm not. Well, I do have a cold that's kicking my ass....but other than that, things are great. I'm only bitter and pissed off every other week...which, suprisingly, happen to coincide with my work weeks.

 

[HMR]

Why don't you enlighten me on everything that you have to do....since I'm so new to this whole jet PIC thing...

English's plan called for everything to be done in 40 minutes. Sounds about right. In our dept., the PNF does all the stuff English mentioned. Meanwhile the PF or "trip Captain" is paying the bill, double-checking catering, double-checking transportation, etc. The trip Captain also does all the flight planning and arranges all lodging, transportation, fuel pricing, etc. long before we arrive at the airport. In our case, the "FO" has it easy.

If you guys have a more efficient way at the Fracs... please share.

 

[HMR]

Ahh come on, I make good money as an F/O on a CJ/2!

You're the first CJ F/O I've ever heard say those words (and I know lots of guys that started in that seat).

You're raising the bar. Good Job!

 

[FracCapt]

English's plan called for everything to be done in 40 minutes. Sounds about right. In our dept., the PNF does all the stuff English mentioned. Meanwhile the PF or "trip Captain" is paying the bill, double-checking catering, double-checking transportation, etc. The trip Captain also does all the flight planning and arranges all lodging, transportation, fuel pricing, etc. long before we arrive at the airport. In our case, the "FO" has it easy.

If you guys have a more efficient way at the Fracs... please share.

Our procedures call for a 1 hour show prior to departure, and aircraft ready to leave 30 mins prior to scheduled departure. We are allotted 30 mins to get everything done. Usually, it's not a problem....generally the only thing that screws it up is when the FBO has a long wait for fuel or something similar.

We get our flight plans filed for us(only for the past couple months, and half the time things change and we have to re-file to our new destination on short notice), and we don't have anything to do with the logistics stuff(hotels, cars, etc at the destination). We have to check weather/notams, determine fuel load and order fuel, check catering, stock the airplane, get the cabin ready for pax(coffee, ice, papers, catering, etc), preflight exterior and cockpit, get the clearance, run the performance numbers, program the FMS, and probably several other things that escape my memory at this point because they have become second nature. Our job is not all that different from a corporate/charter pilot. The difference is that we fly 6-8 hours a day for a week straight.

I really don't want to be doing the fractional thing anymore....I've been at it way too long as it is....but it's holding me over until something better comes along, whether corporate or major. Until then, I'll give it my all while I'm working.

 

[FracCapt]

Are you a fractional pilot? If so, your responsibilities are DIFFERENT (and probably a lot fewer) than those of a corporate or charter pilot.

Aren't you going to fill me in on all the responsibilities that charter and corporate pilots have? I'm just wondering if they've changed since I did it last...

 

[English]

I don't know about other charter pilots, but my and my copilots responsibilities are...

Captain
route plan
file flight plan
check weather and choose alternate if needed
call FBOs or go on airnav and determine fuel prices
determine fuel load
supervise fueling
choose hotels for crew (if overnight)
arrange transportation for crews
confirm passenger transportation
check for TSA no fly list sign off
file for STMP slots if needed
do weight and balance/load manifest
check MEL and inspection due sheet
keep cescom up to date
check passenger IDs

Copilot
preflight inspection
stock sodas, water, coffee, ice, newspapers and snacks
load passenger bags
FMS updates
Jepp revisions
get ATIS
get clearance
get v speeds and takeoff power settings

Whether it's right or wrong - I don't know. That's how my captain did it with me and how our whole company operates. Of course, when time gets crunched all bets are off and there is no clear deliniation of duties. But, my original response was for a newbie who asked what he should focus on.

 

[User546]

Minus the F/O doing the Jepp Revisions, that is almost verbatim the way our company outlines the duties as well. And as she noted, in a time crunch we both pick up the slack of each others duties if needed.

 

[Geronimo4497]

After hundreds hours of dual given I've finally been given the chance to fly something other than a 152. I've been given the privlage of working as a standby pilot for a small part 91 operation that uses a Citation CJ1 (525). I'm thrilled and I feel ready to step up to the challenge of being part of a crew and flying faster than 90 knots.

So I'm wondering if some of you experienced pilots can help a guy out.

What do you like to see in a SIC?
What is the most annoying thing an SIC can do?
What is the most helpful thing a SIC can do?
How should I act around the owner of the aircraft? (the pilots seem really chilled out when they see him)

Anyhow hope to get some helpful hints. I'm also going to post this tread in the training forum, I hope thats Kosher.

Congrats on the new gig! I'm a relatively new PIC for the FRAX that I fly for, so I think I have a good idea of what makes a good FO. Not to get side tracked, but there was a really good article in one of the pilot magazines on this particular subject a couple of months ago. I'll try to find a link.

Anyway, besides getting the airplane ship-shape for depature, communication between crew members is key. Neither of us are here to babysit each other. I hate not knowing where the right seat guy is when the passenger shows up (this happened to me recently). All that we are really talking about here is professionalism. Be READY to go at least 20 minutes prior to departure (restroom, smoke (nasty), eat, phone calls out of the way).

The same idea for flight ops. Tell the other guy what you are doing (goes both ways). Excellent CRM is vital to a happy front office. If you cahnged something to any of the systems, tell the other person (lights, radios/nav, ECS etc).

Since you had the insight to ask this question to begin with, you probably will not have any real problems. Just communicate with your crewmembers, and speak up if you are uncomfortable with something.

Fly Safe.

 

[BuddhaJ]

What do you like to see in a SIC?
What is the most annoying thing an SIC can do?
What is the most helpful thing a SIC can do?
How should I act around the owner of the aircraft? (the pilots seem really chilled out when they see him)

.

You were given 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason. A good SIC should listen twice as much as he/she speaks...that goes for the PIC also.

One of the most helpful things to do is file your flightplans 30 minutes early. If your show time is 1 hour, you should be there minimum 15 minutes early. I like 30 minutes early so you're not running around like an idiot trying to get everything done in 1 hour. Once you get into a routine you'll be done 45 minutes prior to departure, with nothing to do, so get the clearance early.

English and FracCapt....I don't care what the job description says..we're in this together...teamwork..crm..sound familiar. Our jobs are to double and triple check everything we do and what the other pilot does. Anyone that sticks to those job descriptions is like the old capt mentality " there is an invisible wall in the cockpit...everything on this side is mine on that side is yours..."

When you get into a jet you are a crew, you do everything together and if the sic is a new guy, it is your responsibility to teach him the right way. Share your duties and responsibilities with you crew...it makes everyone feel better about themselves and their performance.

 

[BushwickBill]

Well guys thanks for all your advice and help. I gave it my best shot I think it all went really well considering. At first I was bungling like an idiot. I think someone wrote "you'll be so far behind the plane you will survive a midair." I now know exactly what your talking about

I got over all that and just kept giving it my best during the whole flight so by the end of the flight I was doing ok. I kept listening and learning the whole time and I was always asking before I did something which seemed appropriate for the first non training flight in the a/c.

I was very lucky to have a PIC that did quite a bit of teaching. So he was able to coach me through things and we started talking about everything early. Just so all of you high time pilots know, helping some low time guy out is a really big deal and they will appreciate it far more than you know.

Some first impressions: I spent about 30% of my time cleaning or polishing something, 50% of my time doing a "mundane" task like crunching numbers, WX or flight planing and 20% flying the plane. I know that may seem obvious to experienced corporate pilots but I'm hoping other CFI's are getting something out of this thread.