So does CAL take orders from the FAA on when to cancel flights?

[gkrangers]

Or is that just the CSR company line?

I love the "air traffic control" delays....

An ATC delay would be the controllers getting locked out of the tower....

 

[scoreboard]

?.....

 

[gkrangers]

?.....

I had to change a flight today because of the storm. The CSR wouldn't give me a refund (just a credit, which is no big deal, I'll use it..) because the "FAA ordered CAL to cancel the flights"...

I just thought that sounded a bit out there.

 

[MJG]

So does CAL take orders from the FAA when to cancel flights ?

In one word: YES

Feds usually tell CAL what the new arrival rate for EWR will be between such and such hours due to weather, VIP movement, etc. New hourly arrival rate is far below what CAL has already scheduled. CAL must then meet the new hourly arrival rate number by cancelling flights of their choosing. If you are on one of the flights they choose to cancel, well you're just plain out of luck. Lovely system we have these days. And this happens pretty much on a daily basis now at EWR.

So when the CSR tells you that "the FAA made CAL cancel the flight", they are being honest.

My only advice I can give you is to avoid all of the NYC area airports at all costs these days.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Rumor has it the FAA decertified CAL's Operation Snow Flake our EWR primary and secondary deice program. If that is true the FAA basically ordered CAL to cancel all of it's EWR flights.

 

[gkrangers]

In one word: YES

Feds usually tell CAL what the new arrival rate for EWR will be between such and such hours due to weather, VIP movement, etc. New hourly arrival rate is far below what CAL has already scheduled. CAL must then meet the new hourly arrival rate number by cancelling flights of their choosing. If you are on one of the flights they choose to cancel, well you're just plain out of luck. Lovely system we have these days. And this happens pretty much on a daily basis now at EWR.

So when the CSR tells you that "the FAA made CAL cancel the flight", they are being honest.

My only advice I can give you is to avoid all of the NYC area airports at all costs these days.

Does CAL *have* to cancel the flights, or just risk them sitting on the ramp when there isn't a slot for them to depart, in which case they may as well cancel them?

 

[gkrangers]

Rumor has it the FAA decertified CAL's Operation Snow Flake our EWR primary and secondary deice program. If that is true the FAA basically ordered CAL to cancel all of it's EWR flights.

I don't want to look like an ass, but, seriously?

 

[Cobra]

I don't want to look like an ass, but, seriously?

Yeah seriously, and where is this level playing field in regards to the "open skies initiative?"

 

[gkrangers]

Yeah seriously, and where is this level playing field in regards to the "open skies initiative?"

We need the "Open Ground Initiative". Need more runways. Thats the bottleneck...

 

[CAL EWR B737]

I don't want to look like an ass, but, seriously?

Yes seriously.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

From our own private CAL forum:




"I am in GRU, was schedule to operate #30 GRU-EWR tonight (Friday) and was just informed after I showed up in the hotel lobby for the crew shuttle that the flight was cancelled.

Called OPS and was informed that NOW GET THIS:

"The FAA has cancelled their authorization of our "SNOWFLAKE" operation, so we can no longer de-ice and depart aircraft while there is precipitation ongoing."

According to OPS, the FAA has put the kabosh on SNOWFLAKE and they don't want a lot of aircraft arriving in EWR that they cannot subsequently send out on departures, on account of not being able to deice during the next forecast 24 hours of precip."

 

[gkrangers]

So if it is actively snowing/freezing precip then CAL can't fly?

 

[atcloser]

Interestingly, according to the FAA, and as posted on the FAA website, fly.faa.gov, they stated there was a ground delay program in for CAL only at EWR. Here is the text from the website:

Due to OTHER/CUSTOMER REQUEST COA & BTA, there is a Traffic Management Program in effect for traffic arriving Newark International Airport, Newark, NJ (EWR). This is causing some arriving flights to be delayed an average of 2 hours and 11 minutes. To see if you may be affected, select your departure airport and check "Delays by Destination".

 

[gkrangers]

I think its interesting that they go so far as to actually regulate the traffic flow of a specific airline. That can't sit well with ops..

 

[gkrangers]

Flight cancellations suck.

I paid $258 for DAB-EWR-DAB. DAB-EWR was cancelled today, and I wouldn't be able to get rescheduled till Thursday or Friday. So the ticket counter said they refunded the DAB-EWR portion, great.

I was able to find a flight tomorrow from MCO-EWR...

After 45 minutes of back and forth on the phone they wanted me to pay $327 for MCO-EWR and $299 for EWR-DAB.

They would not refund the DAB-EWR portion like the ticket counter said, and they would only refund the entire 258$ roundtrip. In which case I'd have to book a new return flight. So I had a little chuckle and told her to cancel everything.

I ended up booking United (Mesa) DAB-IAD-EWR for $214 on Tuesday and Airtran EWR-ATL-DAB $109 Sunday.

I'm just a little annoyed they wouldn't do anything to accommodate the original reservation. But I guess thats the way it is...if the flight is canceled you are on your own.

Not a shot at CAL really, I'm just annoyed and needed to vent. And any advice if this sounds like BS to anyone.

 

[LJDRVR]

ICE PELLETS!!!

It's OK to vent but EWR was shut down.

 

[gkrangers]

ICE PELLETS!!!

It's OK to vent but EWR was shut down.

Oh I know. I just wanted more help than "Well, the only thing we can do is refund your ticket and charge you $600 for a new one".

 

[flythere]

We need the "Open Ground Initiative". Need more runways. Thats the bottleneck...

Tell the Democrates that!! They want to close more airports. They say airports are a waste of prime real estate!!

 

[LJDRVR]

Oh I know. I just wanted more help than "Well, the only thing we can do is refund your ticket and charge you $600 for a new one".

So are we supposed to be responsible for nature now? How about a pathetically understaffed NY TRACON that results in delays every single day? Maybe the government should reimburse all the missed connections.

You pay your money and you take your chances, Sir. Write your Congressman: The FAA recinded our "Snowflakes" inspection authority Friday, effectively shutting down EWR.

It was a government decision, not Continental.

 

[atrdriver]

What was their reason for recinding Snowflake? Anyone know?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

What was their reason for recinding Snowflake? Anyone know?

They need a better deicing program name, like "SnowBalls". Or "Tongue Frozen to Flagpole" or maybe even "Schwetty SnowBalls".

 

[gkrangers]

You pay your money and you take your chances, Sir.

Thats a pretty awesome business slogan....

 

[regionaltard]

ContiNorris doesn't cancel flights. It administers a roundhouse kick to people's travel plans.

 

[Beetle007]

We need the "Open Ground Initiative". Need more runways. Thats the bottleneck...

From a labor standpoint, I would rather less runways and less capacity. Less capacity = higher ticket costs = more revenue for airlines. We all complain about oil prices and oil profits because demand exceeds supply. But I have never seen an oil worker complaining.

The FAA needs to be more proactive in how much capacity airports are allowed to have. There is no reason any airport should be saturated to the point that delays are normal.

 

[ClubORD]

What was their reason for recinding Snowflake? Anyone know?

From what I have heard. The FAA did not want us leaving in the reported WX conditions when other airlines cancelled most of their flights. Our holdover charts state that in snow grains or ice pellets a pre takeoff contamination check is required after de-icing. "Snowflake" is a chief pilot who performs this inspection in association with the flight crew to determine if the aircraft is clean of ice and ready to leave. The Feds shut this operation down and thus we cancelled most of our flights because of it.

I personally think CAL's "Snowflake"/de-icing procedures are very efficient and really like the way we run things when the WX gets nasty. I was not in EWR that night but it was apparently pretty ugly.

 

[Uniform Shop]

I flew the next day and it was still a mess. It took three tugs and finally a super tug just to get us pushed off the gate.

It wasn't just CAL that was shut down. AA and DAL weren't flying either. I don't know what the ATIS was reporting at the time but if there is ice pellets and any other type of precipitation being reported at the same time it will shut down all operations.

 

[densoo]

"Snowflake" is a chief pilot who performs this inspection

Perhaps that's the problem...it is after all a chief pilot who said:

"Loose powdery snow covering the surfaces of the aircraft. Outside temperature was well below freezing. Was de-icing warranted that morning? It’s my opinion it was NOT. "

and

"It was more than my opinion that morning that the loose powdery
snow would have departed almost immediately during the takeoff roll"

and

"It was suggested by someone that he would not take the chance that a lawyer [or your daughter?] may be seated in row 13, as he was approaching the runway for takeoff with snow on his wings. My answer to that is to make an announcement to the passengers stating your intentions [to takeoff with snow on the wings, one assumes]"

This may have alerted the FAA to a less than cautious approach and been one of the factors (not the only one) in stopping ops for awhile.

 

[tmac3333]

Just what I was thinking Densoo before I read your post. I think you might have hit the nail on the head and someone put two and two together at the FAA, especially with it being an EWR post you quoted.....