Slowing at/by 10K

[Gorilla]

Yeah but leveling at 10 to slow is weak 'n' whimpy and subjects the pax to a less than optimum ride. Real men know exactly how to manipulate V/S so the nose doesn't do wild pitch excursions, and the airspeed will bleed off to 250 at 10 during a decel maneuver while still indicating 1,000 down.

 

[Say Again Over]

my 2 cents.

Well the AIM isn't the "how to operate book" it's more of a book of guidelines, I feel that a majority of new guys will now leave this thread thinking it's perfectly normal to come streaking in at 340 KTS to 10K and stop there while they bleed off speed, WRONG, that is not how to operate (reference xTWA conversations with ATC), and that is not what the AIM is advocating.

 

[AdlerDriver]

Yeah but leveling at 10 to slow is weak 'n' whimpy and subjects the pax to a less than optimum ride. Real men know exactly how to manipulate V/S so the nose doesn't do wild pitch excursions, and the airspeed will bleed off to 250 at 10 during a decel maneuver while still indicating 1,000 down.

But Gorilla,
Some of us don't HAVE pax anymo' :beer:

Since you mention the 1000 fpm thing - that brings up another question. You sound like you're in the camp that thinks you need to maintain a min of 1000 fpm in a descent. If so, why?

The only thing I've ever seen in print is the above statement in the AIM that says notify ATC if you can't maintain a min of 500 fpm (both going up and going down). There is also a similar statement in the general ATC portion of the Denver text and I think the US specific portion as well.

I know there are many who go by the 1000 fpm thing. I'm just curious where it came from. Please don't quote some ATC guy you talked to over a beer or a meeting you had with some local ATC folks - that won't trump the AIM.

 

[AdlerDriver]

Well the AIM isn't the "how to operate book" it's more of a book of guidelines, I feel that a majority of new guys will now leave this thread thinking it's perfectly normal to come streaking in at 340 KTS to 10K and stop there while they bleed off speed, WRONG, that is not how to operate (reference xTWA conversations with ATC), and that is not what the AIM is advocating.

I'm not sure you'll get everyone to agree that the AIM is just a "guideline".

Since you're so adamant about "how to operate", what reference are you using to make such a strong statement? Do you have a "how to operate book" that lays out the wisdom of descending and slowing all at once? As I said in the previous post, a local BS session with a few guys from ATC is not going to provide me with more valid guidance than all the written regs and manuals we have at our disposal. Like it or not, the FAA, our companies and all us pilots are creatures of regs/manuals/FOMs, etc.

So far, the only written guidance on this I've seen contradicts your point of view. Don't you think it's more likely that a cadre of instructors at certain companies decided that your way was a good way to operate and just taught it? Things like that end up becoming procedure as they get passed down to more and more members of the same pilot group. There are other companies that have not emphasized it as much and it's not something that gets a lot of attention. No one at UAL or Fedex seems to care which way you do it but it sounds like Gorilla and the AA sky nazis( - couldn't resist) like the go down & slow down.

I think the go down & slow down might get better style points. I know most FMCs seem to do it that way. I’m not sure that just because you don’t like it, you can just say that the other way is “not how to operate” unless you have some written guidance that prohibits it.

 

[Hold West]

>I feel that a majority of new guys will now leave this thread thinking it's
>perfectly normal to come streaking in at 340 KTS to 10K and stop there
>while they bleed off speed

As far as I know there's nothing preventing anyone doing that - I see pilots use that technique every day, as well as others who start gradually slowing out of 13,000 or so and make a "seamless" transition to flying at 250K below 10,000. That's one of the things that keep me sitting on the edge of my chair when I'm running a line of aircraft over a given fix descending to 10,000 or below. If you're one of those guys that likes to keep it on the barber pole til 10,000, then level and slow, you might find yourself getting slowed early by me if the guy in line ahead is one who uses the technique of gradually slowing in the descent.

To put another wrinkle on it, there's one fix here at HNL (BAMBO) that I clear inbound aircraft over with a pilot's discretion descent to 10,000. If you are at the head of the line, I don't want the whole thing backing up, I might clear you to "maintain 320 knots until BAMBO". Doesn't matter if you're level at 10,000 before BAMBO or not, 91.117 doesn't kick in until you're below 10,000, and you're not going below that til someone else clears you lower after BAMBO so I expect you to do 320K.

What you do in a transition when you're cleared below 10,000 is up to you though, it's all technique, and it's up to me as a controller to watch what you're doing and adjust accordingly.

Aloha!

 

[hydroflyer]

This note immediately follows the above quoted AIM section 4-4-9(d):

NOTE-
Leveling off at 10,000 feet MSL on descent or 2,500 feet above airport elevation (prior to entering a Class C or Class D surface area) to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117 airspeed restrictions is commonplace. Controllers anticipate this action and plan accordingly. Leveling off at any other time on climb or descent may seriously affect air traffic handling by ATC. Consequently, it is imperative that pilots make every effort to fulfill the above expected actions to aid ATC in safely handling and expediting traffic.

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html#4-4-9

 

[81Horse]

Mahalo, Hold West. Good explanation from the other side of the mike.

It probably bears saying that the procedure allowed for by the AIM greatly predates current aircraft, and flight management systems. It also dates back to a time when in-trail spacing was less of a concern than it is today.

Here's the same AIM section on rate-of-climb:

... Descend or climb at an optimum rate consistent with the operating characteristics of the aircraft to 1,000 feet above or below the assigned altitude, and then attempt to descend or climb at a rate of between 500 and 1,500 fpm until the assigned altitude is reached. If at anytime the pilot is unable to climb or descend at a rate of at least 500 feet a minute, advise ATC. ...

 

[Say Again Over]

At the cost index we use it's not that much of an issue, STARS and ATC instructions usually impact our speed well before 10K, how bout 200 south of ORD: "Bus123 turn left heading 270 for sequencing", yikes.

 

[HS125]

Well the AIM isn't the "how to operate book" it's more of a book of guidelines, I feel that a majority of new guys will now leave this thread thinking it's perfectly normal to come streaking in at 340 KTS to 10K and stop there while they bleed off speed, WRONG, that is not how to operate (reference xTWA conversations with ATC), and that is not what the AIM is advocating.

Wow, that's a pretty bold statement! I guess that myself and the several other hundreds of pilots that I have flown with over the last 20 some years need to go back to school.

 

[HS125]

Yeah but leveling at 10 to slow is weak 'n' whimpy and subjects the pax to a less than optimum ride. Real men know exactly how to manipulate V/S so the nose doesn't do wild pitch excursions, and the airspeed will bleed off to 250 at 10 during a decel maneuver while still indicating 1,000 down.

When done properly, leveling at 10,000 to slow to 250 does not subject the pax to an uncomfortable or less than optimum ride. Not properly planning your decent and having to use the speed brakes or do non-normal maneuvering is weak and wimpy.