SLI. What's fair and equitable.

[luckydog]

V1, it's nice of you to acknowledge the 5% or less groups. But 5% and less is statistically insignificant. Since Options would have driven this to arbitration over the issue and we would have been in front of arbitrator Liebowitz (spelling?). You unhappy folks should google her. Do you really want to argue this in front of her? I don't think so. The 30 or so pilots in the negative 10-14% are better off than being stapled to the bottom of 100% "Tenure based list", and the 5% and less pilots are much better off.

The biggest problem is how untruthful the union campaign sold this thing. DoH, longevity, whatever, wasn't mentioned. YOU didn't manage anyone's expectations. YOU (and those on the other side) had an agenda that didn't match up with the publicly stated SLI method.

The transfers should be counted as off the street new hires when you start doing comparisons. Doing otherwise gives every post sale new seat to Flight Options. Pilot #151 isn't 151 out of 299, he's 151 out of 382 (ish). The hiring peaks of both companies should have been smoothed out instead of just a shrug of "sorry, I just ended the career of half the group I'm here to represent".

#151 keeps his seat for now but over time what happens? Tell us all what their current contract says about displacements. Tell us how Options wants to write the new JCBA language on that? Tell us all about how great a fence we're going to have. As soon as I hear that they agree that no FJ pilot will lose his PIC seat EVER and that all FJ FOs will upgrade before anyone jumps a fence for any reason, I'll start to see the light. I have a feeling that isn't how this will play out. You keep saying how afraid of arbitration you were and how bad it would have been. A straight DoH list is what #151 got so it couldn't have been worse.

The Options guys lied, the POC lied(they were lied to as well), everyone hired after 2003 is insignificant. Yep, we are in a real union now.

The ironic thing here is most of the union support at FJ came from the junior guys. They/I believed in the rhetoric about doing something for the greater good. For the most part, the top part of the union wanted nothing to do with the IBT. Now look who's bearing the brunt of the pain.

Even more irony: Everyone on the SLI committee was afraid to give away control to an arbiter, but now both sides can't wait to give all control away on the actual contract.

Don't forget that another timer started on the day the vote was certified.

Since you think you know who I am, do us both a favor and lose my number, I'm done.

 

[Imissmypilot]

V1 thank you for such a thorough explanation. It's very similar to what was explained to me when I took the time to call the sli members.

Lucky, given all the explanations you are just wanting to stay pissed off. I'm tempted to stay there with you as I got screwed too. But I will be reserving my final judgement on the union and who lied based on negotiations.

ProFrac, good or bad I believe by law, unless collusion, malice or illegality enter the picture I believe it is the last word. Management's latest legal action is posturing and more about them trying to extend the 9 month clause and nothing else. More to the point, they want the transfers to do even better on the list which should piss everyone off and bring support back to the union now that their intent to carry on the FoK program is clear as day.

I agree with El Raton. It is what it is and it's time for everyone to STFU and move on. 9 months is a short time. We need to band together and get this contract done. Remember for those of us still wanting the transfers to feel a little pain, the quicker we move and the more the company tries to stall, the more likely this is to happen.

I'm just waiting for the furlough threat to drop. That should make things interesting. You know it's coming. That and other "we're in the poor house" antics. Let's not let them get away with it.

 

[greygoose]

I agree with El Raton. It is what it is and it's time for everyone to STFU and move on. 9 months is a short time.

That was also the same guy that blew up this whole thread before the sli was released crying about the furloughed guys going ahead of him. Now after its released we have to accept it is what it is?

 

[dime line]

The biggest problem is how untruthful the union campaign sold this thing. DoH, longevity, whatever, wasn't mentioned. YOU didn't manage anyone's expectations. YOU (and those on the other side) had an agenda that didn't match up with the publicly stated SLI method.

The transfers should be counted as off the street new hires when you start doing comparisons. Doing otherwise gives every post sale new seat to Flight Options. Pilot #151 isn't 151 out of 299, he's 151 out of 382 (ish). The hiring peaks of both companies should have been smoothed out instead of just a shrug of "sorry, I just ended the career of half the group I'm here to represent".

#151 keeps his seat for now but over time what happens? Tell us all what their current contract says about displacements. Tell us how Options wants to write the new JCBA language on that? Tell us all about how great a fence we're going to have. As soon as I hear that they agree that no FJ pilot will lose his PIC seat EVER and that all FJ FOs will upgrade before anyone jumps a fence for any reason, I'll start to see the light. I have a feeling that isn't how this will play out. You keep saying how afraid of arbitration you were and how bad it would have been. A straight DoH list is what #151 got so it couldn't have been worse.

The Options guys lied, the POC lied(they were lied to as well), everyone hired after 2003 is insignificant. Yep, we are in a real union now.

The ironic thing here is most of the union support at FJ came from the junior guys. They/I believed in the rhetoric about doing something for the greater good. For the most part, the top part of the union wanted nothing to do with the IBT. Now look who's bearing the brunt of the pain.

Even more irony: Everyone on the SLI committee was afraid to give away control to an arbiter, but now both sides can't wait to give all control away on the actual contract.

Don't forget that another timer started on the day the vote was certified.

Since you think you know who I am, do us both a favor and lose my number, I'm done.

What did the Union sell?

 

[el raton]

That was also the same guy that blew up this whole thread before the sli was released crying about the furloughed guys going ahead of him. Now after its released we have to accept it is what it is?

I started this thread in an effort to help stop an integration by DOH, period. It didn't work.

Also, for the record I never said "stfu"to anyone on this thread. I just stated, "its over, let's move on".

My two cents...

I do feel we should move on, however, this SLI shouldn't be forgotten. Our leadership (Flex) didn't properly represent those in my seniority range. As a result and due to this, we took a large hit, and really, the only hit at Flexjet. But remember what Doh so eloquently stated, "we were statistically insignificant". You win some and you lose some.

Now it's done and I have to live with it, but again, the only thing I can do is remember this particular SLI when the opportunity comes to kick the Flex leadership out and replace them with a leadership that will stand on principle in defense of their own during negotiations, you know, like the Flight Options committee did with their own.

Btw, I don't buy the "arbitrator was biased towards doh" excuse that's being used for basically screwing us.

That's all I have to say. Move on.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I started this thread in an effort to help stop an integration by DOH, period. It didn't work.

Also, for the record I never said "stfu"to anyone on this thread. I just stated, "its over, let's move on".

My two cents...

I do feel we should move on, however, this SLI shouldn't be forgotten. Our leadership (Flex) didn't properly represent those in my seniority range. As a result and due to this, we took a large hit, and really, the only hit at Flexjet. But remember what Doh so eloquently stated, "we were statistically insignificant". You win some and you lose some.

Now it's done and I have to live with it, but again, the only thing I can do is remember this particular SLI when the opportunity comes to kick the Flex leadership out and replace them with a leadership that will stand on principle in defense of their own during negotiations, you know, like the Flight Options committee did with their own.

Btw, I don't buy the "arbitrator was biased towards doh" excuse that's being used for basically screwing us.

That's all I have to say. Move on.

Apparently, you missed my "list of facts" a few posts earlier and/or you refuse to contact one of the SLI members to get further details.

 

[el raton]

Apparently, you missed my "list of facts" a few posts earlier and/or you refuse to contact one of the SLI members to get further details.

No, I didn't miss your "list of facts". I agreed with a lot of what you wrote. However, in your "list of facts" you listed an opinion (shown below in quotes) as a fact and this opinion is where you and I disagree.

60 pilots, 134-193, who took the brunt of the loss. Unavoidable due to the massive hiring bubble of Options to Flexjet between 2000-2003 of 225-47 pilots.

You stated "unavoidable". How so? If you're in favor of DoH, I guess. Obviously I wasn't in favor of DOH. We could have easily used several different methods to integrate these flex pilots with group in the hiring bubble. The truth is, we weren't worth the trouble to make this an issue in the negotiations, we were "statistically insignificant"!


Yes, this may have sent the whole thing to arbitration, but maybe not. We'll never know. And if it had gone to arbitration, you're assuming the arbitrator's view of the aviation industry would have been the same as the educational industry's view of seniority. Again, we'll never know. I'd rather be pissed at an arbitrator than my own coworkers.

I'm done V1. I accept what was forced on me and I'll move on. All I ask for those who gained at Flex, please thank one of the insignificants, they'll appreciate it.

 

[doh]

El raton, what I said was a variation of 5% or less is statistically insignificant. What you are attempting is to put words in my mouth which I never said. The real question here is the pilots affected by more than that. Should this have gone through the risk of arbitration over that group? Clearly you believe no amount of risk would be too great, as long as you might come out a little ahead. The committee didn't have the luxury of deciding based on one person's placement. They had to do what was right for the pilot group as a whole.

 

[V1 Rotate]

El,

You have no idea what went on in those negotiations, especially when it came to your group. There were a many of conference calls, spreadsheets, scenarios, you name it, that went on for longer than I care to repeat to try and fix your area. And truth be told, I could fix your situation with a few keystrokes, which we did, but the effect of that wasn't acceptable to the other side. The massive hiring between 2000-2003 by Options compared to us, as stated above, was the problem area from day one. Think of it as a balloon. When you squeeze one end of it, there's an effect at the other. Squeeze that section down and the problem arises elsewhere. The proverbial dog tail, if you will.

On the arbitration argument, we weren't willing to risk the entire pilot group. What if it had been a straight DOH by her? Then you'd fussing because we gave up and now look what happened, right? Right. That's 100% what the entire pilot group would've accused us of, and rightfully so. I'm sorry that you feel you were sacrificed but I assure you it wasn't intentional. We fought hard for you guys and I sleep fine at night knowing we went to the limit for you. I'm sure you know well who I am and there's a good chance we've talked since last week. Feel free to call me anytime.

 

[el raton]

.....