SLI. What's fair and equitable.

[dime line]

Explain how great the list is when 2004 Challenger PICs can't hold a PIC in any airplane

Correct me, Didnt Ricci upgrade 100 or so FOs to Capt at FLEX in order to skew the vote? Upgrades that should have not happened

 

[doh]

I don't disagree with your conclusion about time on property. I disagree that it's a fair and equitable method of integration.

Pay attention, I'm not 80 from the bottom, there are about 80 Options guys below me + all the FJ that were already junior to me. Meaning I'm 80 guys from being stapled.

I did not gain a thing, I lost, pretty big actually. They used some clever Ricci math and managed to take our junior PICs and make them fo's for life. Explain how great the list is when 2004 Challenger PICs can't hold a PIC in any airplane.

I think I know who this is now. First of all, there are about 90 Options guys below you if all Options pilots return from PLOA. Then there are about 150 Flexjet pilots below you. I suppose there is a very slim chance you might lose your CL30 captaincy, but there is zero chance you will ever be an SIC again. You've latched onto your method based on pure selfishness. The Options pilot who would be directly below you, based on your preferred method, was hired four years before you and never furloughed. So your method would screw him into the ground...but hey, it's all about you! isn't it? Never mind that the Options SLI committee would never have agreed to such an unfair proposal. Never mind that we would have gone to arbitration, which is far riskier than you imagine. Never mind any of that, it's all about "special" you! This list is absolutely fair and equitable on every level.

 

[doh]

Correct me, Didnt Ricci upgrade 100 or so FOs to Capt at FLEX in order to skew the vote? Upgrades that should have not happened

How dare you?!? My upgrade (picture me at my steely eyed, captainly, square jawed best here please) was inevitable for a man of my obvious superiority! It couldn't have had a thing to do with trying to buy my vote!
Or
Of course he upgraded pilots more than 80% down our seniority list to try and buy NO votes. His election interference almost worked.
It's one of those two. You believe what you want, and I'll keep my delusion!:laugh:

 

[luckydog]

I think I know who this is now. First of all, there are about 90 Options guys below you if all Options pilots return from PLOA. Then there are about 150 Flexjet pilots below you. I suppose there is a very slim chance you might lose your CL30 captaincy, but there is zero chance you will ever be an SIC again. You've latched onto your method based on pure selfishness. The Options pilot who would be directly below you, based on your preferred method, was hired four years before you and never furloughed. So your method would screw him into the ground...but hey, it's all about you! isn't it? Never mind that the Options SLI committee would never have agreed to such an unfair proposal. Never mind that we would have gone to arbitration, which is far riskier than you imagine. Never mind any of that, it's all about "special" you! This list is absolutely fair and equitable on every level.

Thanks for the lesson in selfishness, but it's not all about me. It was about delivering on the promise.

If it was all about me, I'd be pissed that it wasn't a staple job with them at the bottom.

As it is, it's over and done. Same as the election, choices were made and we'll all live with them.

 

[el raton]

........

 

[japhy]

Why all this discussion over the fate of 80 guys. There are over 600 on the list. Focus on the big picture.

What the big picture showed me is, every pilot above me on the list was hired at their respective company before me, and virtually every pilot below me was hired at their respective company after me.

You can call it "longevity" or anything else you want, but for about HALF the FJ pilots, this was a date-of-hire screwing. I'm sure there are 16 yes votes in the bottom half of the FJ list that are regretting their choice.

The SLI committee members should be ashamed of it instead of defending it as a proud accomplishment.

^^^^
What he said. For the majority of the Flexjet pilots the SLI was a $hit sandwich.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Let?s look at some facts:

Flexjet:

177 positive, 60% of pilots
122 negative, 40% of pilots
Secured the top 33 spots of the list
22 pilots, 112-133, lost less than 5%. Not much.
60 pilots, 134-193, who took the brunt of the loss. Unavoidable due to the massive hiring bubble of Options to Flexjet between 2000-2003 of 225-47 pilots.
Then another 27 pilots at less than 5%
#228 lost 0.16%
12 pilots, 283-294, loss of 0.03-1.51% Basically nothing.

Options:
First 137 pilots in the negative
Later on, another 77 in the negative
Total of 214
58% negative for the group
42% positive
Bottom 25% of the combined list, 170ish pilots, 100 are FLOPs pilots.
Flexjet pilots went on top of all the "DOH Pods" from top to bottom.

Depending on how many transfers stay at Flexjet, Flexjet pilots? numbers only get better. Someone tell me how this is a bad deal for the collective group? Also, it?s worth noting that this whole mess belongs to management. None of us asked for it. The transfers were brought over here on a 12 month LOA with the assumption by management that at the end of those 12 months they might opt to go back, which would incur training costs. The SLI committee did nothing to change this. The transfers still have the choice to either stay or go. If they choose to go back, then that training cost is on the Company still, not the Committee. AND, they legitimately get to keep their Options seniority number. If they stay beyond JCBA, then it?s their Flexjet number. It?s really very simple. Flexjet pilots? real complaint should be that their boss made known where his real priorities fall with the post about how the Committee intentionally targeted the transfers. It?s management that put them in this peculiar position, not anyone else. (The editing done after I originally posted this was a format issue.)

 

[doh]

V1, it's nice of you to acknowledge the 5% or less groups. But 5% and less is statistically insignificant. Since Options would have driven this to arbitration over the issue and we would have been in front of arbitrator Liebowitz (spelling?). You unhappy folks should google her. Do you really want to argue this in front of her? I don't think so. The 30 or so pilots in the negative 10-14% are better off than being stapled to the bottom of 100% "Tenure based list", and the 5% and less pilots are much better off.

 

[el raton]

It is what it is. Time to move on.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Anyone who believes the seniority list that was released this week is the "final word" is seriously delusional.

 

[luckydog]

V1, it's nice of you to acknowledge the 5% or less groups. But 5% and less is statistically insignificant. Since Options would have driven this to arbitration over the issue and we would have been in front of arbitrator Liebowitz (spelling?). You unhappy folks should google her. Do you really want to argue this in front of her? I don't think so. The 30 or so pilots in the negative 10-14% are better off than being stapled to the bottom of 100% "Tenure based list", and the 5% and less pilots are much better off.

The biggest problem is how untruthful the union campaign sold this thing. DoH, longevity, whatever, wasn't mentioned. YOU didn't manage anyone's expectations. YOU (and those on the other side) had an agenda that didn't match up with the publicly stated SLI method.

The transfers should be counted as off the street new hires when you start doing comparisons. Doing otherwise gives every post sale new seat to Flight Options. Pilot #151 isn't 151 out of 299, he's 151 out of 382 (ish). The hiring peaks of both companies should have been smoothed out instead of just a shrug of "sorry, I just ended the career of half the group I'm here to represent".

#151 keeps his seat for now but over time what happens? Tell us all what their current contract says about displacements. Tell us how Options wants to write the new JCBA language on that? Tell us all about how great a fence we're going to have. As soon as I hear that they agree that no FJ pilot will lose his PIC seat EVER and that all FJ FOs will upgrade before anyone jumps a fence for any reason, I'll start to see the light. I have a feeling that isn't how this will play out. You keep saying how afraid of arbitration you were and how bad it would have been. A straight DoH list is what #151 got so it couldn't have been worse.

The Options guys lied, the POC lied(they were lied to as well), everyone hired after 2003 is insignificant. Yep, we are in a real union now.

The ironic thing here is most of the union support at FJ came from the junior guys. They/I believed in the rhetoric about doing something for the greater good. For the most part, the top part of the union wanted nothing to do with the IBT. Now look who's bearing the brunt of the pain.

Even more irony: Everyone on the SLI committee was afraid to give away control to an arbiter, but now both sides can't wait to give all control away on the actual contract.

Don't forget that another timer started on the day the vote was certified.

Since you think you know who I am, do us both a favor and lose my number, I'm done.

 

[Imissmypilot]

V1 thank you for such a thorough explanation. It's very similar to what was explained to me when I took the time to call the sli members.

Lucky, given all the explanations you are just wanting to stay pissed off. I'm tempted to stay there with you as I got screwed too. But I will be reserving my final judgement on the union and who lied based on negotiations.

ProFrac, good or bad I believe by law, unless collusion, malice or illegality enter the picture I believe it is the last word. Management's latest legal action is posturing and more about them trying to extend the 9 month clause and nothing else. More to the point, they want the transfers to do even better on the list which should piss everyone off and bring support back to the union now that their intent to carry on the FoK program is clear as day.

I agree with El Raton. It is what it is and it's time for everyone to STFU and move on. 9 months is a short time. We need to band together and get this contract done. Remember for those of us still wanting the transfers to feel a little pain, the quicker we move and the more the company tries to stall, the more likely this is to happen.

I'm just waiting for the furlough threat to drop. That should make things interesting. You know it's coming. That and other "we're in the poor house" antics. Let's not let them get away with it.

 

[greygoose]

I agree with El Raton. It is what it is and it's time for everyone to STFU and move on. 9 months is a short time.

That was also the same guy that blew up this whole thread before the sli was released crying about the furloughed guys going ahead of him. Now after its released we have to accept it is what it is?

 

[dime line]

The biggest problem is how untruthful the union campaign sold this thing. DoH, longevity, whatever, wasn't mentioned. YOU didn't manage anyone's expectations. YOU (and those on the other side) had an agenda that didn't match up with the publicly stated SLI method.

The transfers should be counted as off the street new hires when you start doing comparisons. Doing otherwise gives every post sale new seat to Flight Options. Pilot #151 isn't 151 out of 299, he's 151 out of 382 (ish). The hiring peaks of both companies should have been smoothed out instead of just a shrug of "sorry, I just ended the career of half the group I'm here to represent".

#151 keeps his seat for now but over time what happens? Tell us all what their current contract says about displacements. Tell us how Options wants to write the new JCBA language on that? Tell us all about how great a fence we're going to have. As soon as I hear that they agree that no FJ pilot will lose his PIC seat EVER and that all FJ FOs will upgrade before anyone jumps a fence for any reason, I'll start to see the light. I have a feeling that isn't how this will play out. You keep saying how afraid of arbitration you were and how bad it would have been. A straight DoH list is what #151 got so it couldn't have been worse.

The Options guys lied, the POC lied(they were lied to as well), everyone hired after 2003 is insignificant. Yep, we are in a real union now.

The ironic thing here is most of the union support at FJ came from the junior guys. They/I believed in the rhetoric about doing something for the greater good. For the most part, the top part of the union wanted nothing to do with the IBT. Now look who's bearing the brunt of the pain.

Even more irony: Everyone on the SLI committee was afraid to give away control to an arbiter, but now both sides can't wait to give all control away on the actual contract.

Don't forget that another timer started on the day the vote was certified.

Since you think you know who I am, do us both a favor and lose my number, I'm done.

What did the Union sell?

 

[el raton]

That was also the same guy that blew up this whole thread before the sli was released crying about the furloughed guys going ahead of him. Now after its released we have to accept it is what it is?

I started this thread in an effort to help stop an integration by DOH, period. It didn't work.

Also, for the record I never said "stfu"to anyone on this thread. I just stated, "its over, let's move on".

My two cents...

I do feel we should move on, however, this SLI shouldn't be forgotten. Our leadership (Flex) didn't properly represent those in my seniority range. As a result and due to this, we took a large hit, and really, the only hit at Flexjet. But remember what Doh so eloquently stated, "we were statistically insignificant". You win some and you lose some.

Now it's done and I have to live with it, but again, the only thing I can do is remember this particular SLI when the opportunity comes to kick the Flex leadership out and replace them with a leadership that will stand on principle in defense of their own during negotiations, you know, like the Flight Options committee did with their own.

Btw, I don't buy the "arbitrator was biased towards doh" excuse that's being used for basically screwing us.

That's all I have to say. Move on.