Skywest in Aspen

[skiandsurf]

We had to go to our alternate the other day due to tailwinds exceeding 10 kts, but a Skywest CRJ700 (I think) landed with a 16 kt direct tailwind. What is the tailwind limitation on those CRJs?

(Most planes that I am familiar with are limited to 10 kts of tailwind for T/O and landing).

 

[viper548]

10 kts

 

[Tarzan]

Mesa sucks!


I win!!!

 

[SPDBRD747400]

Mesa sucks!


I win!!!

Dang it you beat me to it!!!

 

[rausda27]

We had to go to our alternate the other day due to tailwinds exceeding 10 kts, but a Skywest CRJ700 (I think) landed with a 16 kt direct tailwind. What is the tailwind limitation on those CRJs?

(Most planes that I am familiar with are limited to 10 kts of tailwind for T/O and landing).

Whats your point rat....?

 

[Cpt Oveur]

It must be a great overnight

 

[Medeco]

Whats your point rat....?

My point would be that this crew decided to put his plane and his company in a very bad position with a huge toll to be paid had he/she not pulled it off.

Stupid. And with a little more info this crew could easily be pegged, which makes it ever more stupid.

Medeco

 

[AWACoff]

Perhaps they had passed the point where terrain clearance was not assured during a single engine go-around.

 

[USC328]

AWACoff,

You make a very good point. I flew ASE as an FO for SkyWest when they first started ASE. Winds are nothing to mess around with once you are way down deep in that valley. I've landed with windshear alerts. A go around attempt at that point is the deadliest decision you can make. If they were inside (if memory serves me right) a 4.2 DME fix on the special approach, then the only other option is the emergency extraction procedure. Past that point, you are too low and too far committed to make the right turn on the published missed to clear the terrain. (At that point, you are below 8780 feet on the approach, much lower than the published 10K + minimums on the other approaches.) The emergency extraction procedure is a "LEFT" turn out, rather than the missed approaches right turn out. (Boxed canyon turn) It's done at 28 degrees bank on 2 engines and 25 degrees bank on one engine. Every ASE pilot knows this, but the emergency extraction procedure on one engine is NOT GUARANTEED to clear the terrain. If I were light that day, very low altitude and shifting winds, I'd probably take my chances with the 7000ft runway that I already have to have the performance to land within 60% (calm winds) over the rapidly rising terrain where the tailwind is now pushing me toward the well known peak we will not clear on a single engine.

There is a clearway at the end of the runway. I don't remember seeing one past that peak. It's a split second decision one has to make if they got a wind report after being way too committed. Maybe they honestly didn't hear the wind report. That approach is VERY busy.

Again, I don't fly ASE anymore, I've never been in that situation. That's something those pilots have to decide ahead of time and be willing to defend after the fact.

Just my .02

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Some place warm, a place where the beer flows like wine, where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen.

 

[FishandFly]

AWACoff,

You make a very good point. I flew ASE as an FO for SkyWest when they first started ASE. Winds are nothing to mess around with once you are way down deep in that valley. I've landed with windshear alerts. A go around attempt at that point is the deadliest decision you can make. If they were inside (if memory serves me right) a 4.2 DME fix on the special approach, then the only other option is the emergency extraction procedure. Past that point, you are too low and too far committed to make the right turn on the published missed to clear the terrain. (At that point, you are below 8780 feet on the approach, much lower than the published 10K + minimums on the other approaches.) The emergency extraction procedure is a "LEFT" turn out, rather than the missed approaches right turn out. (Boxed canyon turn) It's done at 28 degrees bank on 2 engines and 25 degrees bank on one engine. Every ASE pilot knows this, but the emergency extraction procedure on one engine is NOT GUARANTEED to clear the terrain. If I were light that day, very low altitude and shifting winds, I'd probably take my chances with the 7000ft runway that I already have to have the performance to land within 60% (calm winds) over the rapidly rising terrain where the tailwind is now pushing me toward the well known peak we will not clear on a single engine.

There is a clearway at the end of the runway. I don't remember seeing one past that peak. It's a split second decision one has to make if they got a wind report after being way too committed. Maybe they honestly didn't hear the wind report. That approach is VERY busy.

Again, I don't fly ASE anymore, I've never been in that situation. That's something those pilots have to decide ahead of time and be willing to defend after the fact.

Just my .02

While I understand that Aspen apparently sucks to fly into, technically speaking how do you knowingly exceed a clear limitation and be in the right?

I seriously doubt a fed, or NTSB investigator would see it your 'logical' way.

 

[siucavflight]

While I understand that Aspen apparently sucks to fly into, technically speaking how do you knowingly exceed a clear limitation and be in the right?

I seriously doubt a fed, or NTSB investigator would see it your 'logical' way.

Really? So you think that if the crews answer as to why they did it was "it was the absolute safest course of action given the situation, landing was assured where as a go-around would have been in doubt given the wind shear and the terrain clearance issues we would have had." You then think that the Fed would violate them?

What about when I was on the EMB at Eagle and our ceiling was 370, but I have an RA that required me to climb to avoid a mid-air, this is a clear violation of a limitation, would I be violated? What about if I am at min fuel so I decide to land with a 31 knot x-wind when our ops specs say that 30Kts is max, but I do not have the fuel to go around, would I then be violated for breaking a limitation?

Sometimes you have to do that pilot sh!t that you are paid for, not every company can spell out every procedure for you, sometimes you have to be a big boy and decide what is safest.

 

[SiuDude]

Some place warm, a place where the beer flows like wine, where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen.

I expected the Rocky Mountains to be a little rockier than this...
I was thinking the same thing. That John Denver's full of it, man.

 

[FishandFly]

Really? So you think that if the crews answer as to why they did it was "it was the absolute safest course of action given the situation, landing was assured where as a go-around would have been in doubt given the wind shear and the terrain clearance issues we would have had." You then think that the Fed would violate them?

What about when I was on the EMB at Eagle and our ceiling was 370, but I have an RA that required me to climb to avoid a mid-air, this is a clear violation of a limitation, would I be violated? What about if I am at min fuel so I decide to land with a 31 knot x-wind when our ops specs say that 30Kts is max, but I do not have the fuel to go around, would I then be violated for breaking a limitation?

Sometimes you have to do that pilot sh!t that you are paid for, not every company can spell out every procedure for you, sometimes you have to be a big boy and decide what is safest.

When you had the RA did you notify ATC that you were responding to an RA?

When you are at min fuel and choose to land with a more crosswind than the airplane is legally capable of would you declare emergency fuel?

In my view none of these circumstances have anything to do with being a "awesome pilot doing pilot stuff", they have to do with being legally proper when exceeding a limitation, FAR, etc.

 

[JoeMerchant]

When you had the RA did you notify ATC that you were responding to an RA?

When you are at min fuel and choose to land with a more crosswind than the airplane is legally capable of would you declare emergency fuel?

In my view none of these circumstances have anything to do with being a "awesome pilot doing pilot stuff", they have to do with being legally proper when exceeding a limitation, FAR, etc.

You questioned the actual act of landing with the tailwind and as was explained.....sometimes it makes more sense to continue.....Recipe flying has become the norm....Not enough common sense....

The Vspeeds have changed 3 times since I have been flying the ATR....Profiles and callouts have changed more times than I can remember.....

Fly the D@mn airplane....use common sense....Procedures don't cover every situation....

 

[Dubya]

Aspen??

Some place warm, a place where the beer flows like wine, where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen.

Mmmmmmm. California. Beautiful.


W

 

[Caspian27]

You questioned the actual act of landing with the tailwind and as was explained.....sometimes it makes more sense to continue.....Recipe flying has become the norm....Not enough common sense....

The Vspeeds have changed 3 times since I have been flying the ATR....Profiles and callouts have changed more times than I can remember.....

Fly the D@mn airplane....use common sense....Procedures don't cover every situation....

Exactly. Kind of like how they don't "trust us" to fly the takeoff profile at 10 degrees in the 200 without the FD for what? 3 seconds?

If you can't smoothly rotate to 10 degrees without the FD you should not be flying 121.

Oh yeah, and great response USC328. Totally agree.

 

[BLing]

Some place warm, a place where the beer flows like wine, where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen.

"I dont know Loyd? The French are a$$holes!"

 

[WalterSobchak]

Hi, Lloyd!
Hi, Harry!
How was your day?
Not bad. Fell off a jetway again.

 

[XPOO]

Hi, Lloyd!
Hi, Harry!
How was your day?
Not bad. Fell off a jetway again.

Either come to work, or go to bed.