Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

SKYW pulls out of ASA deal, thank god!

  • Thread starter Thread starter RoyalAviation2
  • Start date Start date

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
R

RoyalAviation2

Thank god, that would have been ugly. Pheww!


Legacy Airlines Look for Sweetheart Deals
Aviation Week & Space Technology
05/16/2005, page 58


James Ott
Cincinnati



Legacy carriers find it isn't so easy to sell their regional subsidiaries


No Sweetheart Deals

Divesting of regional airline subsidiaries would offer at least temporary relief for financially strapped legacy operators, but the path to merger and acquisition is strewn with formidable obstacles.

Need for cash is driving Delta Air Lines to look for a buyer of its wholly owned subsidiaries, Comair and Atlantic Southeast Airlines (ASA). A recent contender, SkyWest of St. George, Utah, the number three regional, ultimately decided against acquiring them.


Comair will take delivery in June of the first of 10 CRJ200s. It is promised 25 70-seat jets in 2006. The CRJ200 is the 1000th CRJ produced by Canada's Bombardier.

"The key is for Delta to find a buyer that will pay a reasonable price," says Raymond E. Neidl, an analyst with Calyon Securities Inc. of New York. He estimates that price to be $600-800 million, a far cry from the $1.8 billion paid by Delta to fully acquire Comair alone in 1999 (AW&ST Oct. 25, 1999, p. 30).

SkyWest pulled out from discussions because of Comair's high cost structure, says airline consultant Robert Mann of R.W. Mann and Co. He thinks Atlantic Southeast didn't appear to be a good prospect for SkyWest either. Delta acquired ASA before the Comair transaction for the purpose of improving ASA's service quality, and it still needs work on operational performance, says Mann.

If Comair and ASA are sold, "I don't think you'll see a sweetheart deal," adds Brooks Holtom, a management professor at Georgetown University. "[Delta] will be looking for the highest bidder, the person who thinks he can manage it best and produce a return for the shareholders."

Comair and its primary unions just completed a round of contract revisions that represent the equivalent of a pay freeze. The pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Assn., annulled a 4.5% pay raise. The flight attendants will get pay raises, but future hires will be paid a 20% lower B-scale over five years. Mechanics are getting a small raise. Mann points out that Comair's costs are still the highest in the industry. A captain with one year of experience receives $60 per hour, or $66 if the aircraft is the CRJ700, about $5-10 more per hour than rival carriers.

Because of that high cost structure, Delta in 2004 held back growth aircraft from Comair while it added capacity for ASA and other low-cost operators affiliated with the Delta Connection system. Starting in June, Delta is rewarding Comair for the new labor contracts with delivery of the first of 10 CRJ200s. In 2006, Comair is promised 25 larger 70-seat jets that could be either Bombardier or Embraer aircraft.

Over the years, alliances between mainline and regional airlines have fallen into three separate types. The jury is still out on what is the best course, says Alan Sbarra of Roach and Sbarra Airline Consulting. Some legacy operators, such as United Airlines, avoided ownership. United stresses business relationships with carriers that feed traffic to its hubs. American Airlines prefers ownership. It acquired Executive Airlines and put together the American Eagle network. At first, Delta took a financial interest in its regional feeds and later turned to full ownership, along with a cast of affiliated independent carriers.

Sbarra believes the impetus to sell is financially driven. "A company may be under pressure from shareholders to get back to the core business."

In recent years, Continental managed to sell off most of Continental Express, now ExpressJet, and Northwest Airlines sold the larger portion of Pinnacle Airlines. Public offerings were "an above-market deal," Mann recalls, "and the result was they were able to do the transactions."

When business turns sour, that means trouble for any airline associated with reorganization under the bankruptcy laws. In reorganization, United pressed former Atlantic Coast Airways for cost savings in their capacity purchase agreement, and the relationship ended. Now as Independence Air, former Atlantic Coast is on its own. Air Wisconsin, another former United Express carrier, also couldn't manage under United's cost-cutting plan.

Going on its own for an airline that once relied on a mainline partner is not an easy transformation, says Mann. In 2000, American Airlines was looking to sell its Executive subsidiary, part of its Eagle network. Several potential buyers performed due diligence, yet there were no takers.

"The first impediment was that even then the view was that independent entities are really not stand-alone capable," the consultant says. "Secondly, the mainline-regional relationship had changed since the mid-1990s. Then quality operators were in short supply and majors were willing to offer lucrative contracts."

Today, with several mainline carriers in reorganization and perhaps more heading that way, the relationship between mainline and feeder regionals is changing again. Now, profitable regional carriers are exploring investments to support mainline carriers and to protect their capacity agreements for the future.

Mann says it is "an odd turn of fortune" that Air Wisconsin and Republic Holdings, parent of Chautauqua Airlines and Shuttle America, may invest $125 million each to keep their regional services for US Airways and America West.

Mesa Airlines, which launched a partnership in recent weeks with Delta, is considering an investment to protect its feed services for the mainline merger partners. Mesa gains up to two-thirds of its revenues from US Airways and American West under separate contracts currently. It is the only regional carrier flying the 90-seat CRJ900s for America West, which AmWest's pilots permitted under their contract scope clause, the industry's most liberal.

If Mesa lost its America West contract, the independent could have a hard time finding an airline to serve that would not be restricted by pilot scope clauses.

The regional airline business appears to be patterning itself after developments in the cargo field, where carriers, known as ACMI operators (Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance and Insurance), are proliferating. These airlines provide basic lift for a contract price and leave the marketing, administration and support operations to the buyer. Chautauqua and Mesa are good examples of these near-ACMI operators.

Thus far in this time of change, labor unions have demonstrated cooperation, revising contracts, taking pay cuts and simplifying work rules, so that mainline and regional carriers can endure economic shocks. Continued focus on easing scope clause restrictions is expected as regional carriers begin operating 100-seat-plus aircraft. Currently, the demarcation line for scope restrictions starts at 70-seat aircraft.
 
Maybe Mesa will bump you out of SLC. They will be getting 30 CRJs quickly when the USAir gig is up. You never know.....


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Hey General, keep it to yourself.

I'm tired of hearing day after day that you wish that me and my fellow pilots would lose our jobs. Have a slight bit of decency, please.

R5
 
RoyalAviation2 said:
SkyWest pulled out from discussions because of Comair's high cost structure, says airline consultant Robert Mann of R.W. Mann and Co. ....... Mann points out that Comair's costs are still the highest in the industry. A captain with one year of experience receives $60 per hour, or $66 if the aircraft is the CRJ700, about $5-10 more per hour than rival carriers.


Interesting. I always thought CMR was a very high cost carrier.
 
General Lee said:
Maybe Mesa will bump you out of SLC. They will be getting 30 CRJs quickly when the USAir gig is up. You never know.....


Bye Bye--General Lee


Yeah, they're gonna need all those 70 seaters from SLC to replace the 73/200 flying.
 
RoyalAviation2 said:
Continued focus on easing scope clause restrictions is expected as regional carriers begin operating 100-seat-plus aircraft. Currently, the demarcation line for scope restrictions starts at 70-seat aircraft.

Let's hope the author is wrong on this count.
 
RJ,

Do you think SKYW turned him down for a job or something?

I can't figure out why he has such a vendetta. Maybe one of our guys stole his girlfriend or something?

Let's just hope he finds happiness. Maybe he'll feel a flush of accomplishment when he reaches 10000 posts. Or perhaps he'll find an enjoyable hobby or new friends.
 
Like I said on another ASA/SKYW thread, I think XJT is in on the dealings with DAL. I'm sure DAL has approached everyone trying to dump either of these carriers. An XJT/ASA merger would seem to make sense. XJT basically has no growth projected past this fall unless it gets more jets for CAL, picks up another contract with someone other than CAL, or buys another carrier. XJT cannot get more jets for CAL because of their scope and they will never win a RFP bid because of MESA and SKYW. The only real prospect for growth is a merger. The only way XJT can have continued earnings growth is to fly more airplanes. Shareholders want to see earnings growth so unless XJT merges with another carrier, their stock price is going to take a fairly big hit.

Look for an ASA/XJT merger. Companies will continue to operate as seperate operating divisions under XJT holdings and the pilot lists will be combined via the ALPA merger policy. I think the ASA pilots would integrate very good at XJT. That would create an ALPA regional carrier 4000 pilots strong.
 
Maybe Mesa will bump you out of SLC. They will be getting 30 CRJs quickly when the USAir gig is up. You never know.....

This whole thing is just getting sad. All the attacks are ridiculous. I was lurking on these threads to watch the chaos happen and hope that we didn't buy ASA, but all it has done is make me wonder what will happen to our industry as we start/continue to attack each other. What if the above statement read like this from a SKYW pilot -

"Maybe Southwest will bump you (DAL) out of SLC. They will be getting more 737's when UAL is done. Could happen..."

Of course I would never wish this upon anyone. I work with too many furloughed pilots in my Guard job and the irony in these statements for me is the personal effort I have put in to helping out UAL and DAL pilots (who don't loose their seniority) in to getting temporary jobs at SKYW to pay the bills (barely) and still fly.

What is it going to take to get us on the same page? Legacy mergers? What?

PUKEing :(

ALPA 05
 
Dave Benjamin said:
RJ,

Do you think SKYW turned him down for a job or something?

I can't figure out why he has such a vendetta. Maybe one of our guys stole his girlfriend or something?

Let's just hope he finds happiness. Maybe he'll feel a flush of accomplishment when he reaches 10000 posts. Or perhaps he'll find an enjoyable hobby or new friends.

General just has enough sense to see a NON-UNION carrier flying routes that his airline used to fly. That in and of itself is not enough to be upset about. The real reason he is upset at most SKYW pilots is because they seem to love the fact that they are NON-UNION and some of their pilots brag of the fact that they are taking others flying. I seriously doubt general was ever turned down for a job at SKYW. Infact, if he was furloughed and SKYW offered him a job, he would turn them down and continue working his job at Shane's Shi!!er Service pumping Sh!t out of port-a-potties.
 
No, I try to back up the ASA guys because they were nice to our furloughs. That genius SSDD smacked them, and I responded with some truth. You never know what will happen in this business. Who thought Mesa would be a DCI carrier? They may bring some planes into SLC, and maybe even bring in the DO-328s to do SUN or even Jackson Hole (a regional jet into Jackson Hole---wow). You never know. Did I say the Skywest pilots would lose their jobs? No. We all have been watching the Regionals switch feed partners in the past year.


Smacktard,

What? Can you explain your quote? Mesa has an agreement for 30 CRJ 50 seaters, right? You knew that, right? ASA is gettting some more 70 seaters though, and they could bring them to SLC, along with some more 50 seaters as Skip Barnet supposedly said earlier.

Tankerpuke,

Southwest probably won't BUMP DL out of SLC since they really can't get anymore gates. As I recall, ASA took some of the gates right next to them. As far as mergers go, yes, I think there will be some, but don't expect to see too much downsizing. Everone says we NEED to reign in capacity, but when the legacies do, the LCCs fill in the space. It is true. There is NO WAY we can reduce capacity when we have other airlines ready to step in. That means lower labor costs will be coming around again, to get closer to the LCCs costs. We may never reach there, but it will get closer unfortunately. That holds true for the regionals too.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General Lee said:
Maybe Mesa will bump you out of SLC. They will be getting 30 CRJs quickly when the USAir gig is up. You never know.....


Bye Bye--General Lee
General tool,
If you had a clue you would be dangerous. SKYW holds all of the "Y" gates, so your wish for mesa to come to SLC wouldcome true it require them to park elsewhere, maybe at your gates? Replacing some of those expensive mainline 73s with 90 seat RJs flown by freedum clowns. You are right we will never know for sure what the future holds, but if the past history is any indication of the future your job and retirement is in a very delicate position right now. Just ask those retired UAL 747 CPTs who are looking at their retirements evaporate before their eyes, since the company got a bought and paid for judge to do their bidding, or ask the Alaska guys who just had their wages cut, I could go on and on, but to what effect? It seems like the regional airlines continue to grow and pay less and less did you think you and you ilk were immune? If you had two iq points to rub together you would be buying lots of beer and mending fences with all of the regional pilots you take great pleasure in pi$$ing on. I have friends at the mainline carriers and I have great sympathy for their plight. When DAL hits BK I will have great sympathy for you too.
PBR
 
Don't get all upset at General Lee.. He lives life with blinders on and thinks that Delta's survival is hinged on ASA and CMR being sold. He also thinks that Delta will force SKYW to aquire one of us in fear of a 90 notice of contract termination.

He thinks that someone is actually going to give Delta tons of cash so they can assume up to 8 billion in additional debt that will set Delta free.

Like I said.. He lives life with blinders on. Don't take it to heart. I don't think he means to be a pompus ass... he just comes off that way sometimes.

General.. Didn't GG say that for every dollar oil rises, Delta will spend an extra 100 million a year? Does it work the other way too? Oil is down about 9 bucks now.. Does that equate to 900 million in savings for the year?
 
Truckdriver said:
General just has enough sense to see a NON-UNION carrier flying routes that his airline used to fly. That in and of itself is not enough to be upset about. The real reason he is upset at most SKYW pilots is because they seem to love the fact that they are NON-UNION and some of their pilots brag of the fact that they are taking others flying. I seriously doubt general was ever turned down for a job at SKYW. Infact, if he was furloughed and SKYW offered him a job, he would turn them down and continue working his job at Shane's Shi!!er Service pumping Sh!t out of port-a-potties.

That is true, I have never applied or tried to apply for a job with Skywest. The problem I have with Skywest stemmed from your 50 seat pay agreement for your 70 seaters. That started the ball rolling. I also dislike the attitude of some of your pilots when it comes to the profits you make. It is easy to do well when you have guaranteed profits.(even at a loss to the parnet Major) As far as being Non-union, that is your choice. If you can't see the fact that your 70 seat agreement was based on false info about losing your United contract, then that is your fault. I love the fact that by 7am the next day, the lawyers had the new contract ready to sign. Those lawyers must have been up all night, eating pizza to try to stay awake and write out a new contract.... Come on. On a personal level, I have never had a problem with you guys, and I have flown with several in the cockpit as jumpseats, and I have flown in your planes to Montana a couple times to see a relative. Have a great day Dave.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
chperplt said:
Don't get all upset at General Lee.. He lives life with blinders on and thinks that Delta's survival is hinged on ASA and CMR being sold. He also thinks that Delta will force SKYW to aquire one of us in fear of a 90 notice of contract termination.

He thinks that someone is actually going to give Delta tons of cash so they can assume up to 8 billion in additional debt that will set Delta free.

Like I said.. He lives life with blinders on. Don't take it to heart. I don't think he means to be a pompus ass... he just comes off that way sometimes.

General.. Didn't GG say that for every dollar oil rises, Delta will spend an extra 100 million a year? Does it work the other way too? Oil is down about 9 bucks now.. Does that equate to 900 million in savings for the year?

Thanks for backing me up....? With friends like you, who needs enemies?

Anyway, I think oil needs to be in the $40-45 range for us to break even, with the recent fare increases added. As far as Delta trying to sell parts of DCI, I think that is important, since we have spent WAY TOO MUCH on RJs in the last few years to no avail. We have sizeable debt and nothing to show for it. We need to get some debt relief and some extra cash would be nice. Grinstein stated today that we will get another $1 billion somehow, and I think I know how. Would I like DCI to be sold? Yes. Does that mean ASA/Comair wouldn't fly for DCI anymore? No. Would I like the debt to be transferred? Sure. Also, the $ quote from Grinstein on the oil was for every penny increase, there would be a $25 million increase in the fuel bill. Scary.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
I also dislike the attitude of some of your pilots when it comes to the profits you make. It is easy to do well when you have guaranteed profits (even at a loss to the parnet Major)

GL,

If you feel this way, why doesn't a sale of ASA or CMR bother you? Any carrier involved in a purchase would get this same deal with added profits to cover the debt. They would make a profit irregardless of the parents financial situation.
 
Thanks for backing me up....? With friends like you, who needs enemies?

You know I love you man!!!:rolleyes:

25 Mill for every penny increase... That is scary. Hopefully oil keeps coming down and fares keep going up!
 
Truckdriver said:
General just has enough sense to see a NON-UNION carrier flying routes that his airline used to fly. That in and of itself is not enough to be upset about. The real reason he is upset at most SKYW pilots is because they seem to love the fact that they are NON-UNION and some of their pilots brag of the fact that they are taking others flying.

The friends I have at legacy carriers aren't happy about seeing their flying go away regardless of whether or not the carriers are union or not. I don't hear any UAL pilots rejoicing because unionized Mesa will be flying 30 more RJ's for UAL. Lost flying is lost flying. It all translates to fewer mainline jobs.

Do you have any examples of SKYW pilots bragging about being non-union?
 
chperplt said:
You know I love you man!!!:rolleyes:

25 Mill for every penny increase... That is scary. Hopefully oil keeps coming down and fares keep going up!

I know, I enjoy debating with all of you guys. No hard feelings, really, excpet some major crying at night!


As far as regionals making profits from their Major partners, I understand that, it is a business. They need to show profits to their shareholders too. But, when the parent starts to do poorly, who do they take it out on? Their own labor, not the regional's. Sure, you and ASA are owned by DL currently, and they are dealing with their own labor issues. But that isn't the case at non-whollyowned. But, I guess a contract is a contract, until we can find cheaper lift with today's costs and challenges in mind, and then replace the higher cost lift. That is what will happen. It is sad, but necessary. Hey, I didn't like a pay cut, but I realized it was necessary.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Hey General,

Read the title of this thread...who's clueless? The fact is that ASA is FOR SALE! They could do better, but they could do worse than Skywest.

When I first noticed you on this board, you seemed to have honorable concerns for your furloughs, now you come across as a bitter, pompous a$$.
 
Also, the $ quote from Grinstein on the oil was for every penny increase, there would be a $25 million increase in the fuel bill. Scary.

If oil is down $9, that would come out to a 22.5 BILLION in savings. are you sure that quote is right?

Maybe its for every penny increase for a gallon of JET A
 
SSDD said:
Hey General,

Read the title of this thread...who's clueless? The fact is that ASA is FOR SALE! They could do better, but they could do worse than Skywest.
DAL needs to sell off ASA, CMR, or both to help avoid bankruptcy. If noone buys ASA or CMR and DAL goes bankrupt what's going to happen? Chances are any carriers with cash will pick through the assets. The best thing the wholly owned pilots could hope for at that point is a preferential interview. At that point there'd be a lot of folks wishing they had been bought and provided fair integration per their CBA. A sale post bankruptcy could harm the wholly owned pilots to a far greater extent than an acquisition now.
 
:) this was a bad idea, and everyone is better off for it not happening.
 
Last edited:
dvmthwsvan said:
If oil is down $9, that would come out to a 22.5 BILLION in savings. are you sure that quote is right?

Maybe its for every penny increase for a gallon of JET A

I forgot what the base number was per gallon of Jet A, but for every penny increase it was a $25 million increase in budget. Maybe it started with $1.20 or something. That was his quote.



Dave,

Sounds kinda cocky. Maybe if we go into Chap 11 we could assign new rates to you guys, or just get rid of you. Mesa would come in and do a great job I am sure. It does sound like Grinstein is trying to avoid Chap 11 at all costs (vowing to cut another $1 billion a year today), and he may just do that with Mesa and other initiatives. Your Gerry Atkins likes to tempt our management by going to ATL interested in a buyout of someone, and then says no in the end. Don't pi$$ off Mama......


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom