Skydive Pilots Around??

[BritishGuy]

I need a little help. I've just taken on this new gig flying skydivers around. I just stared like 2 days ago and with just one 30min flight I was told I was ready to take people up.

Today 3 people got onto the strut of the C 182 at 13,500'. The aircraft started to roll. The let go before the aircraft went over. The aircraft wasn't coordinated, and the last thing I wanted to do to correct the problem was to put opposite aileron in. Cross control in other words. I came down and was given a battering. Then was taken up and shown how it's done. Then I was told that don't worry it come with time. Have any other skydive pilots has similar problems or any advice that could help me out here?

Thanks

 

[pilotman2105]

Not to sound condescending (sp?), but you may be interested in 14 CFR 105 if you haven't checked it out already. Has some different regs that you may not have thought about.

As for the lashing you got on the ground, doesn't sound like a terribly "reputable" company. Then again, I'm green when it comes to this whole part of aviation.

Just my $0.02. Good luck figuring it out.

Blue skies....

 

[BritishGuy]

i'm sorry i'm having a problem finding this in the FARAIM

 

[pilotman2105]

Part 105 - Parachute Ops

 

[GoingHot]

http://diverdriver.com/

Go to http://diverdriver.com/. You will find answers to most of your questions, and a copy of the reg.

 

[avbug]

I can see where the DZO might have become annoyed. If you're afraid to control the airplane, you don't belong in it.

Who told you that you can't cross control? If you're afraid of crossing your controls, then you should go get some remedial flight instruction. Do you think the aircraft is going to explode, or snap into some wild violent spin that only chuck yeager could salvage?

When people climb outside the airplane, there's a need for rudder. Use it. There's a need for aileron. Use it. There's a need to cut the power. Cut it. You may be descending. You have pitch control. Use it. You don't need to stall; start descending. You don't need to shove the nose over...just fly the airplane. It is NOT rocket science.

 

[7B2]

Today 3 people got onto the strut of the C 182 at 13,500'. The aircraft started to roll

No sh!it.

It's the take-off I worry about, whatever happens after that (=safe altitude) is just fine.

 

[TopGun-MAV]

British guy,

indeed that is good question. a very common occurance among the inexperienced jimp pilots. remember.. co-ordination and keep the wings level. use the rudder and airlerons for control. stay safe up there it can be a dangerous game.

just my 2 cents

 

[avbug]

Dangerous game? Is that like the guy who had the near death experience when he had a little fish tail on the highway?

Lessee...takeoff, climb, open door. Close door. Descend. Land. Sounds critical. Take extra underwear.

There's drag outside with jumpers out. Jumpes don't want to be blasted, so pull the power. Allow the airplane to descend. Use whatever control input is necessary to fly the airplane...just like you were taught as a student pilot.

If you're really British, you may be doing this as a private pilot, unlike US pilots, who require at least a commercial pilot certificate. That may mean you have even less experience, which may be part of the reason for your hesitation. However, the reason that you're afraid to "cross" the controls is clearly lack of training or poor training...like a lot of pilots today.

Have you never done a slip? You have crossed the controls. You didn't die then. You won't die now.

If the airplane starts to roll when everybody climbs out, clearly you haven't put in enough control. Use more.

Getting too slow? You have twelve or fifteen thousand feet of altitude. Use it. Descend slightly, keep your airspeed, keep your control. Fly by feel.

If those stepping outside don't have a jump step over the wheel (many jump 182's don't), then be sure to hold the brake if you don't want a black eye when you get back on the ground.

Pay the money, take a jump course, learn to work your parachute. You have no business carrying skydivers to altitude, and wearing a parachute yourself, if you don't know how to use it. That means coming to an understanding of what can happen if a reserve parachute gets out, and it's importance...as well as the needs of the jumpers on the step.

Spend some time thinking about your engine and how you're going to treat it on the descent, and make a pact between yourself and the skydive Gods that you will NEVER make an idle power descent, or push the limits of yourself, the engine, or the airplane.

For heaven's sake, go get with a flight instructor and get some hands on experience performing cross controlled stalls so that they don't worry you any more.

 

[bugchaser]

Wait till you get a few more out there and have one or two try to climb out to the wingtip. I have actually had so much drag and weight out there that full control inputs would not keep the airplane from trying to roll over. Like Avbug says just do whatever you have to do to keep the airplane upright and keep your airspeed up and don't let yourself stall with jumpers outside. I also agree that you should go through a course and make at least one jump. Also agree that you really need to work on your descents and taking care of the engine. The whole thing is pretty simple once you get the hang of it. Just don't let anyone push you into doing anything that you don't feel comfortable with. Watch your fuel. One last thing, be careful leaving the airport after the beer party that usually happens at the end of the day.

 

[BritishGuy]

I really appreciate the advice ladies and gentlemen. I went and got one other pilot to take me out the other day and give me a practice run and we had a few guys hanging of the wings and doing all sorts.....he showed me exactly what has to be done to keep it up (the plane that is!) I felt a lot more comfortable afterwards. Todays tandem jumps went a hell of a lot better. More confident, controling the aircraft (as opposed to the other way around) it felt good. Bu tyeah, I understand, I don't want to get complacent. I still have a lot to come I guess and have to be ready for anything. But thanks all the more.

 

[TonyC]

Spend some time thinking about your engine and how you're going to treat it on the descent, and make a pact between yourself and the skydive Gods that you will NEVER make an idle power descent, or push the limits of yourself, the engine, or the airplane.

Yo, Avbug...

I've never carried jumpers, and likely never will. But just for the sake of my curiosity, and for those others out there too afraid to ask, what's the harm of an idle descent?

 

[avbug]

Why not do an idle decent in a piston powered airplane?

You're joking, right??

 

[Tug Driver]

are we talking about "shock cooling?"

 

[huncowboy]

"shock cooling?"

happened to me yesterday after opening the fridge and locating a missing Warsteiner behind some potatoes...

btw that comment about the brakes and the black eye cracked me up... would have never thought of it but I can imagine the guy stepping on it than doing the superman thing lol... guess it is not funny but I am still laughing...

 

[avbug]

Slipping off the step can be humerous, but it can also hurt. Spin off feet first to the rear, and a concussion can result, not to mention the possibility of grabbing a cutaway handle or a reserve handle while reaching for grips on the step. Sometimes it's a joke, but not when someone gets hurt.

Idle descents can cause thermal damage. Call it "shock cooling" if you will; I've changed enough cracked cylinders to have a healthy respect for the potential cosequences. Backlash damage to engine accessory drives and to the engine itself, any time the slipstream is driving the propeller, is also a real factor to consider. Idle descents in a piston airplane are stupid things to do, smack of exceptionally poor airmanship, and can quickly unnecessarily reduce the life of the engine or it's components.

Sadly the time it's most likely to be manifest isn't in the shop during an inspection; it's during a hot and heavy takeoff with an airplane full of student skydivers.

 

[TonyC]

Why not do an idle decent in a piston powered airplane?

You're joking, right??

NO, I was dead serious. That's why I asked the question, EVEN at the risk of being ridiculed. Thanks for not letting me down.

 

[Tug Driver]

so if one doesn't utilize idle decents, how would one practice engine out procedures?

 

[avbug]

There's a big difference between doing an idle descent from eighteen thousandfeet, or twelvethousand feet (whatever is being used for jumping on a given day), and a training occasional maneuver.

I did some work on a 182 last year that had been with a particular jump operation for a decade. In reviewing the logs, seldom had it gone fifty hours without a cylinder change. That wasn't due to improper installations, or severely bad maintenance. It was due to too many full power climbs with not enough cooling airflow, and too many power off descents...not to mention very likely poor mixture practices.

Pulling the power to idle is hard on an engine, period. Making a comparison between training operations, and operational flying, isn't a good one. In the former, we're attempting to briefly show a slice of what could happen, and in the latter, we're into the every day methods of how it should happen. Big difference.

Additionally, why would you stress the airplane any more than necessary?

 

[huncowboy]

so if one doesn't utilize idle decents, how would one practice engine out procedures?

I >>think<< what avbug means by idle descents is when you come down kind of fast with idle for an extended time from a higher altitude. If he meant something else he will surely correct me.

When you're practicing engine out, you typically begin from 1500-2000' or even lower. Of course you can do it from higher but there is no point in spending training $$ for keeping that 70KIAS for X minutes longer while you are done with all the procedures.
Another thing is that when you practice engine out you pitch for a relatively slow airspeed that may not give such a cooling rate. But in winter I can imagine even a 2-3 min descent at 70KIAS can cool the engine extensively.

During my training, so far, the only maneuver that always resulted in the cylinder gauge needle hitting the left side of the scale was emergency descents.

As always: I hope someone will correct me if I was wrong with the above.