"SJet" gets a name... Compass Airlines files with the DOT

[Prophead]

How can NWA make an easy half Billion? Compass.

I hope the NWA pilots see what they gave up. You are now the regional pilot that you considered the scourge of the industry. If you have any sense you would vote no. This is one more airline that NWA can whip us all with.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Since the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, 2/3 off all airlines having started operations are now out of business. Compass will eventually be added to the list.

At some point isn't it the responsibility of the DOT (and FAA) to limit new entrants into an already over-saturated (ASMs) and financially distressed marketplace? How can Northwest be in a position to project any financially promising business plan when the company has continuously been an industry leader in losing money?

Anything affiliated with NWA is f'd. I wouldn't be suprised if they made new hire FOs pay for training.

Check out the resumes of the senior management team. How many other companies have this "good 'ol boy" club run into the ground? "We are the only company in the industry with over 150 years combined experience running airlines into the ground!"

 

[TurboAWD]

I'm not going to say this Compass is a good thing for us current airlinkers, but those of you that say XJ is now for sure going to be a 49 SAAB operator are jumping the gun a bit (plus 601 and 602 aren't flying around for nothing).

NW can still put 55 76-seaters at airlines other than compass. And I wouldn't be surprised if NW wants them flying before March 07.

I could easily see 9E/XJ/?? getting CRJ-705's starting sooner rather than later, and then NWA giving Compass EMB-175's because they might make the company more valuable for resale (ala MDA).

Personnally, I think were all F'd career wise.

And NWA pilots can stick any attitude twords 'linkers up their A** if they vote yes to this POS.

Please guys, vote no and vote often,

Turbo

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Ever have to sh!t so bad that your pants fit better after? Well the pants may fit better but now you need to get to a hospital asap for a torn rectum. That's this whole deal summed up right there.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Even if the TA is voted down, the pilots here want value for that flying at mainline. It won't change the deal for compass airlines.

 

[fieldinsight]

601 and 602 are gone, especially since Compass will be flying CRJ's initially. I wouldn't be surprised if they are the first two planes over there. XJ isnt going to get any further CRJ's. 9E will be lucky to keep theirs.

NWA has to get a lot of their house in order to get the 76 seaters on the property and in service by March 07. I see a lot of CRJ flying heading over there. With all the orders ahead of them, I don't see the 175's coming that quick, regardless.

 

[IHateMgmt]

601 and 602 are gone, especially since Compass will be flying CRJ's initially. I wouldn't be surprised if they are the first two planes over there. XJ isnt going to get any further CRJ's. 9E will be lucky to keep theirs.

NWA has to get a lot of their house in order to get the 76 seaters on the property and in service by March 07. I see a lot of CRJ flying heading over there. With all the orders ahead of them, I don't see the 175's coming that quick, regardless.

If you read through the DOT application you will see on p.145 the exact fleet plan for Compass. They pull 1 CRJ (probably from the desert) in order to maintain the certificate and fly it from MSP to Dulles. 1 CRJ on 1 route starting June 2006. Its not until March 2007 they start taking delevery of either the E175 or CR9.

It appears that there is no intention for Compass to ever fly more than one 50 seater. Now I'm not saying that things can't/won't change, but thats what they proposed to the DOT. I think its a little early to kiss 601 and 602 goodbye. This thing is not going to work itself out over night, so lets all just sit tight and focus on keeping our pay above poverty levels.

 

[tripacer]

There is a perfectly good reason to start another airline, money. The real problem here is the person making decisions is Neal Cohen. He will serve as both the chairman of Compass and as CFO of NWA. When the stock issues, the exec's will get a huge chunk of the pie. They initially go to 36 airplanes to keep the growth low. When the stock goes public, they will transfer all flying from XJ and 9E to Compass. The airline then will experience amazing growth and the exec's will be wearing gold diapers. Since the flying will remain under in house control, it will not be sold. Don't worry the XJ'ers and 9E'ers will get a staple job, but at year 1 pay. Who will stop the bleeding?

Here's an idea. Let's let the NWA furloughed pilots stop the bleeding. They aren't going back to mainline. But what makes you think that a furloughed DC9 pilot should just slide into a captain position at Compass, an alter ego company, ahead of a mesaba pilot? Why not an FO position at XJ flying the Saab. Too good for that?

What this is, is another twist to scabbing. NWA pilots have justified it to themselves that they are helping furloughed NWA pilots get off the street but in reality its at the expense of another airline pilot. If NWA wants to create another airlink and it helps get those guys off the street, but not at our expense - then great. But with this scenario, you've essentially furloughed 2/3 of the XJ pilot group, taking our union jobs.

If you're an XJ pilot, then you have every right to call NWA pilots what they are if this TA goes thru - SCABS.

 

[Yudso]

Here's an idea. Let's let the NWA furloughed pilots stop the bleeding. They aren't going back to mainline. But what makes you think that a furloughed DC9 pilot should just slide into a captain position at Compass, an alter ego company, ahead of a mesaba pilot? Why not an FO position at XJ flying the Saab. Too good for that?

What this is, is another twist to scabbing. NWA pilots have justified it to themselves that they are helping furloughed NWA pilots get off the street but in reality its at the expense of another airline pilot. If NWA wants to create another airlink and it helps get those guys off the street, but not at our expense - then great. But with this scenario, you've essentially furloughed 2/3 of the XJ pilot group, taking our union jobs.

If you're an XJ pilot, then you have every right to call NWA pilots what they are if this TA goes thru - SCABS.

Truly brilliant. Mainline stealing regional jobs. The next logical step would be flight instructors and freight pilots stealing regional jobs from the pfter's who paid 50 grand for the "right" to fly at a regional. If you are an XJ pilot, you should be more concerned with our own problems and let NWA ALPA deal with it's problems. If the TA passes they give up rights to all that flying. It is not your place to claim that it belongs to XJ pilots. Looks like I just took the bait.

 

[tripacer]

Truly brilliant. If you are an XJ pilot, you should be more concerned with our own problems and let NWA ALPA deal with it's problems. If the TA passes they give up rights to all that flying. It is not your place to claim that it belongs to XJ pilots. Looks like I just took the bait.

NWA ALPA is my problem. They are eliminating 2/3 of the XJ pilot group jobs, if this TA passes. Why am I the problem? Because I think I deserve fair and equal representation from the same union that is pounding my head against the wall? Am I suppose to feel grateful to all the redtail pilots for allowing me to have a flying job for over 6 years. Oh, that's right, my job is to protect mainline - at all costs! - Whatever.

If this TA passes, any furloughed NWA pilot that accepts a job at Compass is a SCAB! No different then you guys screaming about *************************, MidAtlantic, Mesa, Freedumb, Republic - all ALPA alter-ego carriers.

FU Woerthless.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

NWA ALPA is my problem. They are eliminating 2/3 of the XJ pilot group jobs, if this TA passes. Why am I the problem? Because I think I deserve fair and equal representation from the same union that is pounding my head against the wall? Am I suppose to feel grateful to all the redtail pilots for allowing me to have a flying job for over 6 years. Oh, that's right, my job is to protect mainline - at all costs! - Whatever.

If this TA passes, any furloughed NWA pilot that accepts a job at Compass is a SCAB! No different then you guys screaming about *************************, MidAtlantic, Mesa, Freedumb, Republic - all ALPA alter-ego carriers.

FU Woerthless.

Are you taking pot?

 

[Yudso]

NWA ALPA is not after your job. They are doing the exact same thing you are, trying to save their @sses. No point in calling them names when you would gladly have more nwa pilots furloughed to save yourself. Don't blame the nwa pilots for your situation, blame management. They are not taking XJ/9E jobs. They are trying to protect their own, which is what I would expect them to do. You and I may not like the TA, but it is something that we are going to have to live with. Don't expect mainline ALPA to give a sh!t about Mesaba. The alpa collective is not out to defend the industry, only to protect each individual pilot group. If you can't handle that, then go join the RJDC.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

There is only so much flying to go around at NWA, and there are too many pilots. Whomever has the most bargining power is the one who will get the jobs. With the current timetable at NWA there shouldn't be any addition furloughs, maybe a few over the summer, but it is likely NWA will be recalling within a year. Several guys just went through upgrades here and there are a lot of pilots getting ready to retire.

 

[Rossa]

How do you know that mngt won't just backfill DC9 flying with Compass? Or for that matter, XJ/9E? Before all this started at XJ, one thing that made us stand out from the pack was efficiency (I know, everyone has a story about how inefficient we are), but that aircraft utilization was pretty high - I'm guessing higher than NWA or 9E. Yes, it's a different kind of flying, A320 compared to SF340, but the number crunchers are probably planning on doing more with less = no growth/hiring at NWA for a VERY long time.

 

[CFIse]

so this company is just going to fly one crj around for 8 months until they get their 76 seat aircraft

They have to do something to keep the certificate alive. The chances of Compass actually ending up anywhere near IAD is slim to non-existent, but since that's where the certificate currently lives it's just easier to fly one plane out of IAD and worry about the rest later.

 

[Schwanker]

Don't blame mainline for you problems!

Here's an idea. Let's let the NWA furloughed pilots stop the bleeding. They aren't going back to mainline. But what makes you think that a furloughed DC9 pilot should just slide into a captain position at Compass, an alter ego company, ahead of a mesaba pilot? Why not an FO position at XJ flying the Saab. Too good for that?

What this is, is another twist to scabbing. NWA pilots have justified it to themselves that they are helping furloughed NWA pilots get off the street but in reality its at the expense of another airline pilot. If NWA wants to create another airlink and it helps get those guys off the street, but not at our expense - then great. But with this scenario, you've essentially furloughed 2/3 of the XJ pilot group, taking our union jobs.

If you're an XJ pilot, then you have every right to call NWA pilots what they are if this TA goes thru - SCABS.

Tripacer -

First of all, I'm a furloughed NWA pilot and am against this TA. I wish I had the opportunity to vote NO. Second of all, I will not take a position with Compass if it does eventually surface as I have a much better job right now with the military.

You are completely off the mark blaming NWA pilots for you current situation. Was Mesaba and Pinnacle SCABBING while they were hiring and flying DC-9 routes while NWA was furloughing?

Currently with the exception of the inefficient AVROs, all flying above 55 seats belongs to mainline. It has been this way for years. Why would a Mesaba pilot have a right to this flying over a NWA pilot?

Why shouldn't a furloughed pilot be able to slide into a captian position at Compass if this TA passes? That was exactly what was negotiated. Anyone else at Compass would be a newhire with the knowledge that NWA pilots have super-seniority flowback rights. If they don't like it, don't apply.

I don't like this TA any more than you. Unfortunately, Mesaba has not experienced any real growth and the AVROs are at risk. Mesaba has only been allowed to fly 55 seat aircraft and smaller with the exception of the AVROs. That's the job you interviewed for and accepted. Don't blame mainline pilots for you situation.

From what I understand, Mesaba pilots would not have allowed NWA pilots super seniority to get the 56+ seat flying. I understand your position but at the same time, you have no complaint if the flying goes somewhere else. It may be the price to pay to get the flying. The up side would have been a flow through and larger aicraft at your company. This was a choice by your pilot group and from your attitude, I'm sure you support it. That's your right. Just don't blame NWA pilots if the flying goes somewhere else.

I wish you and all Mesaba pilots the best in the future. I sure it will be challenging just as it is for mainline pilots.

Schwanker

 

[tripacer]

Tripacer -

First of all, I'm a furloughed NWA pilot and am against this TA. I wish I had the opportunity to vote NO. Second of all, I will not take a position with Compass if it does eventually surface as I have a much better job right now with the military.

You are completely off the mark blaming NWA pilots for you current situation. Was Mesaba and Pinnacle SCABBING while they were hiring and flying DC-9 routes while NWA was furloughing?

Currently with the exception of the inefficient AVROs, all flying above 55 seats belongs to mainline. It has been this way for years. Why would a Mesaba pilot have a right to this flying over a NWA pilot?

Why shouldn't a furloughed pilot be able to slide into a captian position at Compass if this TA passes? That was exactly what was negotiated. Anyone else at Compass would be a newhire with the knowledge that NWA pilots have super-seniority flowback rights. If they don't like it, don't apply.

I don't like this TA any more than you. Unfortunately, Mesaba has not experienced any real growth and the AVROs are at risk. Mesaba has only been allowed to fly 55 seat aircraft and smaller with the exception of the AVROs. That's the job you interviewed for and accepted. Don't blame mainline pilots for you situation.

From what I understand, Mesaba pilots would not have allowed NWA pilots super seniority to get the 56+ seat flying. I understand your position but at the same time, you have no complaint if the flying goes somewhere else. It may be the price to pay to get the flying. The up side would have been a flow through and larger aicraft at your company. This was a choice by your pilot group and from your attitude, I'm sure you support it. That's your right. Just don't blame NWA pilots if the flying goes somewhere else.

I wish you and all Mesaba pilots the best in the future. I sure it will be challenging just as it is for mainline pilots.

Schwanker

I guess my beef with the mainline group at NWA is this:

You preach solidarity and echo the rallying cry of union brotherhood when times are good and in your favor. But, when the times get tough, you're like a kid about to lose all his marbles and you scoop them up, cry and go home.

I keep forgetting that this is NOT a union, but an association run by mainline pilots to keep what they continue to claim is theirs. Actually, it's not you that owns the flying, its the company. The two of us just get to do the part of the flying thats been negotiated by our respective companies. Apparently it was decided long ago that regional pilots main job is to protect mainline jobs at ALL costs. Evident by the insane decisions by our MEC. They dont have a choice either, they are given their marching orders from ALPA national.

Why shouldn't a NWA furloughee slide into a cpt position at Compass? Tell me why he should?

But all this again is a useless argument, one that will never be solved as long as both of our pilot groups are associated with ALPA. Too many conflicts of interest among the two parties.

It's funny - ALPA is running around blaming colusion between MAIR HOldings, Mesaba and the links to NWA. But maybe the pilots should be looking at the case of colusion between ALPA National, NWA, XJ, and our MEC? Afterall if the goal IS to protect mainline jobs at all costs, then this certainly works out just right doesnt it? Our mec was screaming to high heaven about BigSky a few years back, blah blah blah - scope, blah blah blah - but we havent heard boo from them about Compass Airlines. I wouldnt be suprised if Woerthless, McClain, Wychor, Spangers, Foley, and Steenlands lawyers all sat down and discussed things. It's just too neat and pretty.

 

[Flyerjosh]

Tell me this- why is the issue even being discussed in the light it is by NWA pilots? For some reason they feel that Compass is "their" airline and "their" flying.

It's not. If it was, then the pilots at Compass would be ON THE SAME SENIORITY LIST. IMO, all that is happening is that management at NWA has figured out a way to park the DC9's and transfer that flying to a less costly company. How is this any different that any other "alter ego" airline, regardless of who ends up with the flying?

It does nothing but hurt the pilot groups at BOTH the regional levels and NWA. Prove me otherwise.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Tell me this- why is the issue even being discussed in the light it is by NWA pilots? For some reason they feel that Compass is "their" airline and "their" flying.

It's not. If it was, then the pilots at Compass would be ON THE SAME SENIORITY LIST. IMO, all that is happening is that management at NWA has figured out a way to park the DC9's and transfer that flying to a less costly company. How is this any different that any other "alter ego" airline, regardless of who ends up with the flying?

It does nothing but hurt the pilot groups at BOTH the regional levels and NWA. Prove me otherwise.

Because compass was a compromise, and obviously it could be worse if the judge allows the CBA rejection. They were going to hurt us even worse, look at the mechanics. The mechanics probably would have hurt the company more by not striking, and every deal the company offered afterwards was way worse; now they get nothing. Yes compass hurts, this whole TA hurts, but it is the lesser of the evils.

 

[whaleroast]

Because compass was a compromise, and obviously it could be worse if the judge allows the CBA rejection. They were going to hurt us even worse, look at the mechanics. The mechanics probably would have hurt the company more by not striking, and every deal the company offered afterwards was way worse; now they get nothing. Yes compass hurts, this whole TA hurts, but it is the lesser of the evils.

Enjoy your flying, you sackless POS! It wasn't a compromise, it was a rape, and you're the old lady with the diaper around your knees. It's amazing how you could rationalize such an agreement, but I suppose you have your winter gas bill to pay so that might explain your decision.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Enjoy your flying, you sackless POS! It wasn't a compromise, it was a rape, and you're the old lady with the diaper around your knees. It's amazing how you could rationalize such an agreement, but I suppose you have your winter gas bill to pay so that might explain your decision.

Ahhh...rational, thoughtful discourse.

 

[Flyerjosh]

Because compass was a compromise, and obviously it could be worse if the judge allows the CBA rejection. They were going to hurt us even worse, look at the mechanics. The mechanics probably would have hurt the company more by not striking, and every deal the company offered afterwards was way worse; now they get nothing. Yes compass hurts, this whole TA hurts, but it is the lesser of the evils.

At what point do you draw the line? By your arguement, any pay is better than none. What do you do when NWA retires the 9 fleet and they say- you can be furloughed or transferred to compass to fly as an FO for $40/hour? Is it still better then "the alternative"?

What happens in a year when NWA is still in BK and still bleeding like a stuck pig? When management is still giving themselves bonuses because "we have to in order remain 'competitive' in order to keep skilled executives on board", yet they are asking for more cuts, and threatening once again to toss out contracts? Do you really expect them to respect you?

When it happens next time (and it will, mark my words), are you willing to roll over again? What happens when NWA finally posts a profit again (that seems like a pretty big assumption right now), yet the Management still wants cuts because "that's what the 'industry standard' is"? Will you still be so willing to roll over?

I'm not a NWA pilot, but I am a pilot. This isn't my fight directly, but I certainly have a vested insterest. If you're so naive to think that the results of this vote won't have a direct impact on others outside of NWA, think again. For those of you that are willing to fight the good fight, good for you. I support you 100%, and am ready to dust of my uniform to come stand with you.

For those of you that continue to rationalize substandard wages, work rules, and scope protections, at the expense of the entire industry, because "It could be worse", or "It's the lesser of two evils," then maybe it's time for the rest of us to encourage your jump to a career outside of professional aviation. (This applies to ALL carriers, and not just NWA.)