Six reasons airlines are set to crash

[waveflyer]

The business major's worldview is blinded by minutiae -

Let me see if I get your argument...."your paycut is good for you ..."


Open your eyes gentlemen- you're trying to convince us of this argument when I've seen flight attendants at regionals making more than the FO. Where AA execs extract $250 million in concessions and transfer it to bean counters in the form of management retention bonuses- in a decade where executive compensation grew by 470% while labor saw nothing but tremendous cuts.

Why would you think those arguments would work on us anymore?

My first commuter, I was a tp capt making $34k-FOs qualified for food stamps- after 9/11 they came to us for concessions even though they were soon poised to benefit from scope releases-
I learned that day that we will never make a low enough amount to satisfy mgmt. All concessions do is lower our ability to negotiate as we are more on the edge of our finances and our unions collect less dues.

Regardless of what you say- I do NOT view my paycut as good for me OR, more importantly, the industry. We are valuable and must advocate for ourselves.

 

[pilotyip]

Regardless of what you say- I do NOT view my paycut as good for me OR, more importantly, the industry. We are valuable and must advocate for ourselves.

How does a group do that and not chase away customers due to higher costs? How does it prevent a new LLC coming in with all first year crewmembers working for regional wages from undercutting the price structure? Do you want to go back to regulation and gov't run airline with no CEO's maybe a GS-15 running the airline? You are welcome to do anything you want, but there will be unintended consequences from market dynamics.

 

[waveflyer]

How does a group do that and not chase away customers due to higher costs? How does it prevent a new LLC coming in with all first year crewmembers working for regional wages from undercutting the price structure? Do you want to go back to regulation and gov't run airline with no CEO's maybe a GS-15 running the airline? You are welcome to do anything you want, but there will be unintended consequences from market dynamics.

maybe Glen tilton should ask himself that question- after all he will make 3 times as much in one year as a major airline pilot will make in their entire 30 year career. IF they are super lucky to get 30 years in one spot.

Think about that. And we don't blink an eye at $12M.

Don't do the bs communism thing. The problem isn't capitalism, it's how out of balance it has become. Salaries are more representative of what good ole boy network you've hooked up with rather than any reasonable measure of your contribution to the economy. I know those at the top don't want the cash cow to end for themselves- but they are simply not worth what they are paid. As leaders and managers- start there- then get back to me- I've sacrificed enough. You want air travel and talented pilot- better open your wallets

"chi town raised me crazy so I live by four words ******************** you pay me"-kanye west

FUPM if you're not into rap....

 

[pilotyip]

So What

I know those at the top don't want the cash cow to end for themselves- but they are simply not worth what they are paid. As leaders and managers- start there- then get back to me- I've sacrificed enough. You want air travel and talented pilot- better open your wallets

so all that is true it does not mean anything to the consumer of airline travel. What have you sacrificed, you have one of the choice jobs in the country. You are paid in the upper 20% of wage earners in the country, and I don't think you even made CA yet, which will put you in the upper 2-3% of all wage earners. You are truly in a privliedged position that almost everyone on this board would gladly trade with you. How much is enough?

 

[waveflyer]

Ahh- don't hate me for making it through the maze-
before 9/11- most every major airline job was a fantastic job- now very few are. I have no illusions that Swa is NOT affected by industry standard- we make a lot more than most pilots- i'm not talking about increasingMY wages- but I have issues with what regionals make- and most majors. I'd love to see everyone leapfrog southwest.

As for most wage earners- I take on more responsibility in a day than most wage earners will in their life. I am grateful for the ability to do this job- its often good life experience. It's also often gut wrenchingly fatiguing- and it's safe because we as pilots are very talented as a whole.

If an average wage earner wants to make what I make- they can enroll in flight school and sacrifice for over 10 years like I did- speaking nothing of the fact that my wage is not guaranteed in the future- if I lose this job for any reason- I start completely over at the bottom lime a kid out of college- that alone is worth a higher wage once you make it.

Let's just say Yip- there are economics to being a pilot that you ignore - pilots don't grow on trees- they sacrifice for years to get positioned to make a good wage- at my salary- it has barely been worth it financially for me

 

[chase]

Pilotyip-
how much of every dollar spent on airline tickets ends up in the pilot's wallet?
Give me some numbers

Some numbers I found on airlinefinancials.com from a cross section of airlines, 2002-2008, sorry couldn't find more recent ones...trends were interesting to see.

DAL

Pilot wage/salary cost per passenger (o/w)

'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
$15.42 $16.80 $16.37 $11.18 $9.88 $10.32 $11.19

Pilot wage/salary % of average o/w fare
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
13.0% 13.6% 13.1% 8.4% 6.2% 6.0% 5.8%

Passenger fare (average one way)
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
$118.38 $123.61 $125.41 $132.59 $158.32 $173.16 $191.93

AA

Pilot wage/salary cost per passenger (o/w)
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
$16.53 $16.01 $14.09 $12.75 $12.08 $11.79 $12.43

Pilot wage/salary % of average o/w fare
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
10.8% 9.8% 8.6% 7.5% 6.6% 6.3% 6.3%

Passenger fare (average one way)[10]
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
$153.53 $162.58 $164.04 $169.47 $182.00 $185.76 $196.55

CAL

Pilot wage/salary cost per passenger (o/w)
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
$13.77 $13.28 $13.38 $11.98 $11.17 $12.03 $12.81

Pilot wage/salary % of average o/w fare
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
8.3% 7.9% 7.7% 6.4% 5.6% 5.7% 5.5%

Passenger fare (average one way)
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
$165.21 $168.54 $174.79 $185.99 $199.41 $211.77 $233.80


UAL
Pilot wage/salary cost per passenger (o/w)
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
$21.52 $13.57 $11.88 $10.55 $10.42 $10.72 $11.99

Pilot wage/salary % of average o/w fare
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
12.1% 7.9% 6.7% 5.5% 5.0% 4.8% 4.9%

Passenger fare (average one way)[10]
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
$177.43 $172.13 $177.18 $193.56 $207.42 $223.06 $242.87


SWA
Pilot wage/salary cost per passenger (o/w)
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
$7.40 $7.97 $8.55 $9.19 $9.59 $10.00 $10.90
Pilot wage/salary % of average o/w fare
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
8.7% 9.1% 9.7% 9.8% 9.2% 9.4% 9.2%

Passenger fare (average one way)[10]
'02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08
$84.72 $87.42 $88.57 $93.69 $104.40 $106.60 $119.16


Avg employees per airplane, FAs per airplane and pilots per airplane also tells you something about productivity differences. This link will take to you a chart (scroll to 2nd page) that shows that dramatic difference.

http://www.airlinefinancials.com/uploads/08_lg_CH_47-54.pdf

Lastly, one other measure of productivity is number of ASMs (per 10K) generated per employee...more is better. Chart at http://www.airlinefinancials.com/uploads/08_lg_CH_39-45.pdf shows these numbers but summary is below (least to most efficient):

AA 225
USA 225
CAL 250
UAL 260
DAL 275 (pre-merger)
NWA 290 (pre-merger)
SWA 305



Sorry I couldn't make the cells break out better...I'm sure there is a way but I just don't know how. Lear, any suggestions?

Interesting numbers comparison.

 

[waveflyer]

Very interesting. Dont' have time at the moment on the iPhone- are there numbers for AT Jblu and Alaska?

 

[relief tube]

Raise ticket prices.

The market will correct.

The end.

good luck with Spirit, Airtran, Jetblue and even SWA out there.