Situation at Citation Air?

[RCR5]

Her does harbor a lot of anger. Can't be healthy for the guy.

It is easy to get angry when a GREAT company gets run out of business by a bunch of greedy pilots and the mafia in the form of a "Union".

If you had a spine, you would be able to get angry too and stand up for something that actually makes sense. Unions are quickly becoming a thing of the past here in America.....THANK GOD! These crooks have been fleecing Americans for way to long. Time to turn the tables. Watch and learn.

 

[BentOver]

Using some free drink coupons tonight ehh......

 

[OPECJet]

Wonder if the bartender is union....

 

[clueless]

I am pretty certain I know who you are D bag, and what your reason is for slagging CA. They kicked your dumb ass up and down for being a D Bag pilot and you hated JD for it. Go "F" yourself!

You simpleton. 5 years at SW? Liar.

I am 100% certain you have no idea who I am.

And it's actually 6 years. And I'm gonna gross $14,500 in April. Not counting the 9.3% that my company contributes to my 401(k) and the multiple thousands contributed annually to my profit sharing account. You're right. I hate my union.

One thing I liked about CS was they were generally pretty good at hiring solid people as pilots. Apparently the interview process failed to weed you out.

 

[tdwnds1]

Never seen such visceral reactions to the downsizing of a business! You can argue the pros and cons of unions till you are blue in the face, but here are the facts:

- CA had NEVER to my knowledge made a profit. Even in the boom years, CS was still losing money. Revenue was going up, but you can only run a company for so long at a loss before bad things start to happen.

- I distinctly remember SO saying that "If we dont do our jobs, we get the Union we deserve". Well CA got a union and much of the senior management got forced out or has left. You can come to your own conclusions.

- You can argue that Buffetts money kept NetJets going during the tough years, but couldnt Textron have put the same money in during those same years. Textron has/had almost the same money as "Uncle Warren".

- Lastly, just like accidents, one thing DOES NOT automatically lead to declline of a company. You have several factors as play here: Bad economy, broken fractional model, questionable business decisions by management in the process, unmanageable cost structure etc. etc. To say that the UNION alone, with no contract, no legacy costs from the union, and negotiations JUST starting is simply wrong. The "Chain" here is very long.

 

[208starcheck]

You mean why they are down to that many from their 5300 in their hey day? Sure, the fricken unions suck!

5300....... You GUESSED a little high. You missed the mark by not just 10's or 100's but 1000's.

 

[G4dude]

Never seen such visceral reactions to the downsizing of a business! You can argue the pros and cons of unions till you are blue in the face, but here are the facts:

- CA had NEVER to my knowledge made a profit. Even in the boom years, CS was still losing money. Revenue was going up, but you can only run a company for so long at a loss before bad things start to happen.

- I distinctly remember SO saying that "If we dont do our jobs, we get the Union we deserve". Well CA got a union and much of the senior management got forced out or has left. You can come to your own conclusions.

- You can argue that Buffetts money kept NetJets going during the tough years, but couldnt Textron have put the same money in during those same years. Textron has/had almost the same money as "Uncle Warren".

- Lastly, just like accidents, one thing DOES NOT automatically lead to declline of a company. You have several factors as play here: Bad economy, broken fractional model, questionable business decisions by management in the process, unmanageable cost structure etc. etc. To say that the UNION alone, with no contract, no legacy costs from the union, and negotiations JUST starting is simply wrong. The "Chain" here is very long.

I'm not sure what others are suggesting, but I feel the new union appearance on CA property was the final straw, not the only one.

 

[AftCG182]

I'm not sure what others are suggesting, but I feel the new union appearance on CA property was the final straw, not the only one.

I've already expressed my support for the CA guys/gals that are enduring this mess. Referencng this post, specifically, we (Avantair Pilots) are paying close attention to what's going on over there. Although the Teamster drive seems to have floundered on our (Avantair's) property, you can be assured that many of us are watching and learning from your relatively brief union experience.

Best of luck to all. You have my greatest support in your future.

Dave

 

[RCR5]

I am 100% certain you have no idea who I am.

And it's actually 6 years. And I'm gonna gross $14,500 in April. Not counting the 9.3% that my company contributes to my 401(k) and the multiple thousands contributed annually to my profit sharing account. You're right. I hate my union.

One thing I liked about CS was they were generally pretty good at hiring solid people as pilots. Apparently the interview process failed to weed you out.

Oh yes, I know who you are.

Wow, $14,500 with a union.....lol. Sure you earned every penny too (or think you did).

As I have said in numerous thread, SW is the ONLY one who seems to have gotten along with the union on property. Now hero, how about American, United, Continental, Delta, the auto industry, the teachers union, blah, blah, blah........get it?

The interview process failed twice then. Though they got you in the end. Keep sucking.

 

[BentOver]

We may have found someone who makes G4 seem sane

 

[jetlag7]

We may have found someone who makes G4 seem sane

Funny, I was kinda thinking the same thing...

RC, that much rage cannot be healthy for anyone. Walk the dog, play with your kids, do some yoga, or just about anything to get the blood-pressure down before you have a heart attack!

Truth be told, aviation is a BRUTAL industry. That fact won't change whether a union is on property or not. I've been furloughed twice in my career - once from a non-union shop, and once from a unionized group. (although technically the non-union job wasn't a furlough - they just laid a bunch of us off when a decision to downsize was made)

I believe there were much greater forces at work pushing CA to abandon the fractional business than the fact one of their labor groups decided to unionize.

 

[Outta Here]

Your thinking WAY to much of yourselves or the "UNION" guys if you think that a few hundred pilots unionizing was the reason or the final straw that forced this situation at CA. Get real. Do you think CA is the ONLY union shop.

 

[UAL-GSO]

Funny, I was kinda thinking the same thing...

RC, that much rage cannot be healthy for anyone. Walk the dog, play with your kids, do some yoga, or just about anything to get the blood-pressure down before you have a heart attack!

Agreed. We'll probably never know the whole story, and in the end it doesn't really matter. The company is dying and those of us affected can choose to either pick ourselves up and move on or crawl into a hole and die also.

This was a job - nothing more, nothing less. The industry is tough, especially on operators with a business model that doesn't make money. You will move on and CA will be no more than a distant memory - not even a blip on the radar in this industry.

If venting helps you to get through this, then so be it. At some point you have got to let go of this anger and move forward. I hope you have family or people that at least care about you and you eventually figure out what is truly important.

I speak from experience - 5 furloughs in the last decade. No job is worth causing yourself and the people who care about you this much angst.

 

[clueless]

Oh yes, I know who you are.

If you're so sure you know who I am, then PM me with my name.

Wow, $14,500 with a union.....lol. Sure you earned every penny too (or think you did).

My employer must have thought I earned it, or they wouldn't be depositing it in my bank account.

As I have said in numerous thread, SW is the ONLY one who seems to have gotten along with the union on property. Now hero, how about American, United, Continental, Delta, the auto industry, the teachers union, blah, blah, blah........get it?

The advent of labor unions was one of the driving factors in the creation of the middle class of this country. But I wouldn't expect you to have any knowledge or understand anything that happened before you were born.

It appears you have trouble understanding things that happened after you were born as well.

The interview process failed twice then. Though they got you in the end. Keep sucking.

Okay. I'll keep sucking up a great paycheck working in a positive environment, represented by a union that is looking out for my best interest and has a very good relationship with management.

As for you, I'm done. When I have a conversation with someone, I prefer the other party to be sane.

(Oh, don't forget to PM me my name, Einstein.)

 

[RCA]

Agreed. We'll probably never know the whole story, and in the end it doesn't really matter. The company is dying and those of us affected can choose to either pick ourselves up and move on or crawl into a hole and die also.

This was a job - nothing more, nothing less. The industry is tough, especially on operators with a business model that doesn't make money. You will move on and CA will be no more than a distant memory - not even a blip on the radar in this industry.

If venting helps you to get through this, then so be it. At some point you have got to let go of this anger and move forward. I hope you have family or people that at least care about you and you eventually figure out what is truly important.

I speak from experience - 5 furloughs in the last decade. No job is worth causing yourself and the people who care about you this much angst.

Great Post!!

 

[gunfyter]

Great Post!!

Ditto

 

[bailout]

Man he really is clueless. Cessna could care less if we had a union. 80% of Cessna is currently unionized right now.
The best part about this whole situation, is the anger that guy is going to live with for the next 20+ years thinking that the union caused him to lose his job. Better stock up on the Tums...

 

[Sparse]

The bottom line is Cessna wants to sell airplanes. Who has been Cessna's largest customer over the years? Answer Netjets. It was a huge event for Cessna when Netjets went to Embraer. Common Sense? Netjets doesn't want the supplier to be a competitor. I look for Netjets and possibly others to be big players in the Latitude. I predict we will hear something about it at this years NBAA. As far as the union's role in the whole process. Probably had some effect on the decision making but not the main reason. I think the union now is just like a fly in the room. It's an annoyance but if you can't kill it you can live with it because eventually it's going to die or fly out the door. The union is at CitationAir but it is not going to have any effectiveness. Barely over half of the pilots voted for it. If 8 or 9 pilots had changed their vote it would have failed. I would guess less than half are paying dues. The company will continue to meet at negotiating sessions because they have to or be guilty of not bargaining in good faith. Little will happen and eventually many of the MIGS will either be furloughed, fine other jobs, or just quit because they don't want to move to an aircraft's home base. So where was the beginning of the end? I think it was when Textron hired Scott Donnelly (former GE) and Donnelly hired Ernst (former GE). The board hired them because GE executives grew up in a highly competitive culture where the survival of fittest concept is embraced. They are well trained and they know how to run things. They were charged with making money and increasing shareholder value. A business has to make money. CA management over the years has told it's employees that we have never made money but don't worry because we contribute to Cessna's bottom line by selling a few jets, using the service centers, etc. Are you kidding me? A company needs to make money. Maybe CA can make money as it becomes more lean and focusses on more profitable business models. Fractional is a legal ponzi scheme. You have to keep new money coming in all the time. CitationAir will not be getting any new money coming in because it is exiting that part of the business. Success may come with the new model (Managment, charter, charter network). It those ideas can become money makers, CA will be around. If not it will go away. The real question is why are the same players who could not ake money before, still in charge of trying to make money now?

 

[BentOver]

The bottom line is Cessna wants to sell airplanes.

Bingo... Not to turn this into a NJA thread (like we always do) but all these companies who said "life was still good" after NJA cancelled the orders over the last couple years, were lying through their teeth. The only manufacturer that seems to not be really affected is Gulfstream. (and why not, they make the best product out there)

Cessna
Hawker/Beech
Dassault (haven't heard much about them)

Now look at Bombardier and Embrear's numbers.. I think their forecasts are pretty positive?

When you lose billions of orders, there is no way that can be a positive occurrence....

I haven't looked up recent numbers, just going on what I've read oer the past year or two and trying to remember the details....

Don't know anything about the Latitude, but I would think the TEN will be a member of any future order.... NJA still has roughly 70 X's to be replaced over time, 70 TENS is a pretty hefty number for Cessna....

 

[NETFLIER]

Bingo... Not to turn this into a NJA thread (like we always do) but all these companies who said "life was still good" after NJA cancelled the orders over the last couple years, were lying through their teeth. The only manufacturer that seems to not be really affected is Gulfstream. (and why not, they make the best product out there)

Cessna
Hawker/Beech
Dassault (haven't heard much about them)

Now look at Bombardier and Embrear's numbers.. I think their forecasts are pretty positive?

When you lose billions of orders, there is no way that can be a positive occurrence....

I haven't looked up recent numbers, just going on what I've read oer the past year or two and trying to remember the details....

Don't know anything about the Latitude, but I would think the TEN will be a member of any future order.... NJA still has roughly 70 X's to be replaced over time, 70 TENS is a pretty hefty number for Cessna....

You and I usually agree, but with a a cost of $28 mil a copy, the TEN is too expensive for mid size....