Single Standardized Payscale.

[maru657]

Exceptions?? Wow thats like comparing the Titanic to a paper cut. Those are exceptions which say that an airline in the district of a powerfully placed politician can operate in bankruptcy forever or will get more govt; contracts on the side than others. Regulation ain't communist, the last communist this planet saw was Jesus and you saw what they did to him. And don't say socialist, any form of govt; by defination is socialist. The US Army is a socialist organization. Your going to have a hard time explaining the merits of the so called de-regulated, free enterprise system to pilots out of work.

 

[Wasted]

All you people who think this idea is socialism...guess what? If you're a part of ALPA, and if you sit on a seniority list, you're part of a socialist system. You're all socialists. Labor unions are socialistic at the core. If you don't want to be a socialist, then you should negotiate your own salary, and upgrade should be based on merit. The concept of a onelist for all airline pilots is nothing different than how non-RLA unions in other industries work. If you were a dockworker, you'd join the union down at the union hall first before you could go out and get a job. Everybody worked under the same rules and pay. The different employers all had to pay their dockworkers the same amount of money, they couldn't compete with each other by cutting their worker's pay. They had to find their profits elsewhere. This is how the longshoremen have gained so much, by having all of the workers standing together, instead of undercutting each other's wages to get work.

The opposite is true in the airline industry. The employers have a unified strategy that keeps the pilots divided and fighting each other for work, continually driving wages downward. It has been amazingly successful. As of now, ALPA is nothing more than a professional organization that does some capital hill lobbying, some support for contract negotiations, and maybe fight to get a fired pilot his job back. Other than that, it has no function. It is no union.

Yes, some people would have to give up some, while some people would gain some, but in the long run, and it may even take a generation or two, but everybody will have more if pilots actually could unite and be one block against all management. Airlines would then have to actually find efficiencies in their operations and increase revenues to increase profits instead of merely gutting pay.

Unless full cabotage is allowed in the US, a union hall could work in the airline industry. As long as there is geographic protection, union halls have been successful. For the dockworkers, employers couldn't unload goods bound for the US in Singapore, where people are cheaper. They had to unload goods bound for the US in the US. So there is no getting around having to use the union labor. While it failed in merchant sailors because employers could merely go use a ship registered in Liberia crewed by Filipinos who work for rice balls to avoid using US ships.

Pilots are notoriously hypocritical when it comes to these issues. They are union laborers yet think of themselves as high paid white collar professionals. They complain about the state of industry yet vote for anti-labor groups. What can I say? Unless there is a change, we will always lose.

 

[Phaedrus]

Your going to have a hard time explaining the merits of the so called de-regulated, free enterprise system

Yes, but that isn't because it isn't explainable.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wasted,

Excellent post. The first step is getting pilots to understand what you are even saying!!

However, getting the union hall organization in the front end is prevented by the RLA??

The issue: the quandary is the RLA calls the airline industry an economic necessity, yet the workers, specifically pilots in our case, are not. This appears to be simply because we are a country geared towards big business and ultra capitalism. (this is not a hidden statement promoting anti-captialism). What is a pilot to do?

Your thoughts?

http://www.nmb.gov/documents/docsup.html

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The last thing we need is the US Government to regulate something. We need
healthy, competitive airlines to make profits, because they generate our paychecks.

We just all need to get on the same page and come up with some solutions...kind of a "take-care-of-your-own" thing.

Things ARE getting organized...you just don't see it.

How is ALPA going to create healthy, competitve airlines that make profits?

Your 2001: A space odyssey of "something wonderful is going to happen" is a big turn off.

 

[Birdstrike]

...The concept of a onelist for all airline pilots is nothing different than how non-RLA unions in other industries work. If you were a dockworker, you'd join the union down at the union hall first before you could go out and get a job. Everybody worked under the same rules and pay. The different employers all had to pay their dockworkers the same amount of money, they couldn't compete with each other by cutting their worker's pay. They had to find their profits elsewhere. This is how the longshoremen have gained so much, by having all of the workers standing together, instead of undercutting each other's wages to get work.

Your analogy breaks down concerning the nature of the work. I submit that the perceived value of flying jets, to many, will simply ALWAYS supercede "having all of the workers standing together instead of undercutting wages to get work." That's not management's fault because they know it and use it to their advantage. And its really not a pilot's fault if he's willing and content to work for $60K a year instead of $120K. I agree with those who've proclaimed that it's simply the marketplace at work. If you can organize and hang together, more power to you. History says you cannot.

 

[FreezinginMN]

Hmmmm, sounds a lot like communism to me.

I dont think so.......comrade.

While Bush praises spreading democracy around the world, we should just admit to ourselves that democracy is about as close to communism as anything. People voting on things is stupid and a form of communism.

People should only vote to elect leaders. Let the leaders do the leading and vote new leaders when you are unhappy. Never vote on ideas, initiatives, or anything of those sorts. Because, that is communism. I hate going to vote and seeing "initiatives" on the ballots. I didn't have the time to read the full initiative and spend the many many hours needed to understand its full implications. Yet the Yahoos around me all think they are capable of voting on such an item.

The United States Army training
manual number 2000-25, dated November 20, 1928 states in defining a Democracy:

'A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meetings or any other form of direct expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude towards property is communistic; negative property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it is based upon deliberation of the governed by passion, prejudice and impulse with-out restraint; or regard to consequences. It results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.'

 

[Phaedrus]

Thank you Mr. Orwell.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....
WAR IS PEACE.
PEACE IS WAR.
LOVE IS HATE.
et al

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Reform ALPA,

What you are striving for is a single list. It won't help. The US Merchant Marine had a single list and had it for a long time, as well as a strong union.

They are in worse shape than pilots.

Andy

Well..
I guess the way it's going for our industry is healthy and great for employees and employers. The issues for the US maritime industry go way higher and further than "one list", try Washington, DC. Legislation allowed US and foreign companies to outsource labor to foreign contractors. Wanna see what your job will look like in the not so distant future, look at the US maritime industry.
Wake up
PBR

 

[Wasted]

Your analogy breaks down concerning the nature of the work. I submit that the perceived value of flying jets, to many, will simply ALWAYS supercede "having all of the workers standing together instead of undercutting wages to get work." That's not management's fault because they know it and use it to their advantage. And its really not a pilot's fault if he's willing and content to work for $60K a year instead of $120K. I agree with those who've proclaimed that it's simply the marketplace at work. If you can organize and hang together, more power to you. History says you cannot.

$60K? Why not $10K? Everybody will have their own individual threshold of when it is just not worth it anymore. Of course this would be a hard thing to do. Most of us pilots have proven to be both stupid and selfish when it comes to these matters. Few pilots truely understand why the things that are happening to them are happening, just look at the first set of replies in this thread to the original question. However, *IF* we are to stop the downward spiral, getting out from underneath the RLA and setting ourselves up like a real labor union is probably going to be the only way...

 

[Ty Webb]

I have said for years that we need a Guild. The Guild would set minimum pay per seat and equipment. Your own union can always negotiate something better, but never less.

That way, pilot pay is off the table and management would have to manage their way out of their current mess.

Unfortunately, half of you frigging cork smokers are too stupid to go for it, so here we are.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I have said for years that we need a Guild. The Guild would set minimum pay per seat and equipment. Your own union can always negotiate something better, but never less.

That way, pilot pay is off the table and management would have to manage their way out of their current mess.

Unfortunately, half of you frigging cork smokers are too stupid to go for it, so here we are.

If it was such a great idea then why isn't it so?

Question Ty Webb- HOW will the [your] Guild set the min pay? How would the min rates be determined then HOW will every management agree to them. Will every pilot group HAVE to be in the Guild? If not, then what will the Guild do when a non-guild pilot group accepts rates at lower than Guild minimum.

If all pilot groups HAVE to be in the Guild, then HOW is the Guild going to get/request/force every pilot group into the guild?


Rezfully Yours...

 

[Clyde]

I couldn't figure our how, or I'm not allowed to create a poll, so I'll just ask it.
Maybe someone smarter than me can turn it into an actual poll.


WOULD YOU BE IN FAVOR OF A SINGLE, STANDARDIZED (FAIR !) PAYSCALE BASED ON EQUIPMENT/SEAT/LENGHT-OF-SERVICE WHICH APPLIES TO ALL CARRIES ?


YES: I would be in favor of a single and fair payscale.

NO: I think pilots should negotiate their wages with their individual companies
the way it is now.



Please answer yes or no only.

My vote:

NO!​

 

[Sam Snead]

I was just watching a show on TV about luxury cruises, and there was a short segment with the... Captain (a Dutch guy).

Are there any insights to be had about the way professional sailors unite (or don't) when it comes to passenger liners?

I am totally igorant about maritime issues in totality and in advance I beg your forgiveness of such ignorance.

 

[wms]

The problem with a standard pay rate is not all airlines can afford good pay rates. A single rate would be limited by what the poorest airline could pay which would lower the pay of pilots working at good companies.

The problem with a single union or guild is that if a more senior pilot gets furloughed from a poorly run airline or a bad airline goes out of busines, you would be bumped onto the street. You become the victim of another airlines problems even though you work for a good airline.

I would say the pilots who support this are the ones at the most unstable airlines. It's typical ALPA arrogance that says I can take your job because things aren't working out for me here. And this is what this is all about.

 

[Birdstrike]

The problem with a standard pay rate is not all airlines can afford good pay rates...

It's one of the problems. I still don't see any way around the 800 lb gorilla in the room: no shortages of qualified pilots always willing to work for less. Some see that as a race to the bottom. Others see it as the American Way; free market capitalism, and their choice.
Whatever it is, it's going to prevent standard pay from ever being anything but woofle dust, no matter what "secret discussions" may be going on.

 

[Wasted]

The problem with a standard pay rate is not all airlines can afford good pay rates. A single rate would be limited by what the poorest airline could pay which would lower the pay of pilots working at good companies.

Raise prices to cover your costs. Is that such a novel idea?

The problem with a single union or guild is that if a more senior pilot gets furloughed from a poorly run airline or a bad airline goes out of busines, you would be bumped onto the street. You become the victim of another airlines problems even though you work for a good airline.

You don't work for an airline. You work at an airline. You belong to the union first.

I would say the pilots who support this are the ones at the most unstable airlines. It's typical ALPA arrogance that says I can take your job because things aren't working out for me here. And this is what this is all about.

I can stick my hand into a spinning turbocharger and lop off a few digits and I would still be able to count on that hand all the airlines here that are stable. But hey, I guess as long as you're at a less unstable airline, and you're at the top of the list, and you've got your boat, what the heck should you care about what would be best for this industry in the long run, right? This of course is exactly what is meant by the term "stupid and selfish" pilots.

 

[Wasted]

It's one of the problems. I still don't see any way around the 800 lb gorilla in the room: no shortages of qualified pilots always willing to work for less. Some see that as a race to the bottom. Others see it as the American Way; free market capitalism, and their choice.
Whatever it is, it's going to prevent standard pay from ever being anything but woofle dust, no matter what "secret discussions" may be going on.

There will be a 1800lb gorilla that forces all the 800lb gorillas to march into the union hall and sign up first before they can get a job. Go somewhere and see if you can get a job at a construction site by saying you're not in the union and you're willing to work for less than all those other union guys sitting over there. See what happens.

 

[maru657]

There will be a 1800lb gorilla that forces all the 800lb gorillas to march into the union hall and sign up first before they can get a job. Go somewhere and see if you can get a job at a construction site by saying you're not in the union and you're willing to work for less than all those other union guys sitting over there. See what happens.

Ahhh, This is the concept of a real union as opposed to a association.
Of course, too many working pilots in the US came from wealthy, middle class kids who's parents could afford to buy them a career or the officer ranks of the military. This leads to a certain mind set. Life has been too easy, no real challenges which would build the character necessary to take on industry leaders and the govt. As a result, the numbers probably are not there for a real union. However with the current condition of the US economy and the airline industry and where it's going ie; furloughs, layoffs etc; maybe it's due.
Especially since your ability to maintain any career stability is more dependant on the company's ability to buy political help than be competant.
A regulated industry would control the growth of companies and lead to the old system of longer periods as a first officer but stability within that company would be much assured.

 

[Phaedrus]

...or the officer ranks of the military. This leads to a certain mind set. Life has been too easy, no real challenges which would build the character necessary to...

You sir, are an idiot.

 

[Birdstrike]

There will be a 1800lb gorilla that forces all the 800lb gorillas to march into the union hall and sign up first before they can get a job. Go somewhere and see if you can get a job at a construction site by saying you're not in the union and you're willing to work for less than all those other union guys sitting over there. See what happens.

In 23 states that have right to work laws, nothing will happen. You can't compell mandatory union/guild/whateveryouwannacallit membership. Joining on a voluntary basis leaves you with what you have today...freedom to choose and to willingly work for less than the union guy. Isn't that the reality why a single scale wouldn't work? What was the question again?

 

[Wasted]

In 23 states that have right to work laws, nothing will happen. You can't compell mandatory union/guild/whateveryouwannacallit membership. Joining on a voluntary basis leaves you with what you have today...freedom to choose and to willingly work for less than the union guy. Isn't that the reality why a single scale wouldn't work? What was the question again?

That leaves 27 where you'd get kneecapped.