Single Seat to Multi Crew Cockpit

[milflyboy]

Are there any good books to ease the transition from a single seat fighter to a multi crew cockpit?

 

[SMOE]

I'm sure there are several books on Crew Resource Management but you may want to consider taking a CRM course and networking with heavy drivers. There's some things you just have to experience and multi-crew CRM is one of them.

In my previous life as an FE I witnessed some good and some ugly transitions of pilots from single to multi-seat. Mostly it came down to attitude/ego as to whether they made the transition. Those willing to share the workload and accept input from others did just fine.

Good luck...

 

[bafanguy]

milflyboy,


Listen to SMOE...especially the last two sentences...

 

[F18-FDX]

I wondered the same thing myself. It's not that big a deal, instead of working with a guy on your wing you're working with a guy sitting next to you. I've been doing it in the FE seat for 3 years now and am about to try my hand at the MD-11. It's all about safety, communication and teamwork. Check your ego at the cockpit door (or more appropriately back in flight ops), zip up your thick skin and get on with business. Especially as a new guy, don't be afraid to speak up if you see something that's NQR (not quite right), in fact it's your job as the pilot monitoring, and don't ever get caught thinking "I'm sure he knows what he's doing" and not saying anything. This can sometimes be a problem if your Captain is a pr1ck, fortunately that's rare here at FedEx but I have heard nightmare stories. Likewise, don't be offended when someone says "what fix are you headed to" or "when are you going to start your descent". And believe it or not, make sure someone is always flying the airplane. That's not a problem for us as single seat guys because we know who's in control, but when things go wrong in a multi-crew cockpit, in my opinion it's more confusing than when you are by yourself.

Bottom line...it's not rocket science. It is a combination of common sense, skill, experience and good headwork, things you should already be familiar with.

 

[AlbieF15]

As a fresh off IOE 727 FO, I'll add my 2 cents.

First...I thought learning to land the 727 was tough. I thought learning to fly as a committee (you talk, I'll fly, you get the flaps, I'll move the heading bug...that is if I'm on autopilot, otherwise you get the heading bug etc etc) was a new wrinkle. Here is what challenged me(and will likely continue to challenge me until I get more data points...)

CRM...FO talks on ground. Do I ask first before transmitting (no...not usually) or just make it happen. Remembering to take radios on landing roll AFTER captain takes jet back to taxi (not hard...just different). Watching 1 Captain always stay 1 VOR and inbound course ahead (I liked the tech) verses another stay on the same one with me (not wrong...) Adopting your style to match your captain's techniques and preferences. Even in a "standard" cockpit there is lots of room for different techniques.

Landing...first of all, airline guys make a BIG deal out of landing on centerline. He11...I usually land on my half in an Eagle, sometimes with another bro on my wing on the other side. I instinctively avoid the very center of a runway so my nose wheel won't bounce on lights or slide on paint and so my hook won't skip if I have to take a cable. Airline landing 101 is LAND ON CENTERLINE. Sounds easy, but almost always during roundout or flare 3500 plus hours of instinct and sight picture have me drifting 2-4 feet off centerline. I'll continue to work on that... The other issue is just getting the "picture" and "feel" of the various weights, CGs, and types of jets you fly. An F-15 with or without a tank fly just about the same in the pattern. With a myriad of variation of 727s here at FDX, plus different weights, CGs, and pattern altitudes, there is no "always" picture but rather a whole lot of variables you have to manage.

Autopilots. They seem to work great when you don't need them. They seem to s*ck when you are behind an arrival or departure and trying to get a free hand. I never had much GA time with autopilots, and the F-15 has a 2 toggle switches...attitude hold (and that is all is does) and altitude hold (whoopee!) Learning when and how to toggle between modes, and knowing when to lean on the autopilot (and when NOT to) involved some learning pain and knashing of Line check airman teeth.

Skinny parameters. What I mean is if I'm 3500 feet high on arrival or 5 miles from a crossing altitude restriction in an F15, I say "so what" and then climb/dive/add power/speedbrake/G it up as required to make things right. Other than considering the poor guy stuck on my wing (if applicable) there isn't much else to consider. If I'm 10 knots fast or 10 knots slow on an approach--who cares? I will fix it...now, on short final, or even in the flare if I want. I can fly 150-300 knots on arrival and 150-350 on departure and nobody cares. Now...find yourself way high on arrival or behind on a SID in an airliner and you are (usually) screwed. You can drop gear, use speedbrakes, zig or zag a bit but its all done by committee and nothing gets fixed fast. Additionally...too fast or slow on approach is an auto go-around, and while they are "free" you certainly don't want to make a habit or consistently needing multiple approaches to land. Conversely, if you don't like a pattern in the F15--take it around and do another closed pull-up...heck that is kind of fun anyway. The airspeed management is also an issue....speed up to 250 after clean up, then accel to 310 passing 10k, then slow below 250 on the way down, etc etc. You can do a lot more "seat of the pants" stuff in your military fighter. Perhaps with more time/seasoning I'll get those instincts in the 727 also, but for now it feels very mechanical and procedural.

And like everyone else has said...attitude is everything. Bottom line is I thought learning the new job was harder than I expected. However, I also know I've done challenging upgrades before and knew if I worked hard I'd learn. You will likely do likewise... In any case, good luck and enjoy!

 

[MovingTarget]

Don't Worry

It's not that tough Skippy. Don't worry.

 

[Juvat]

Albie:

Those are interesting comments. I discovered some of the same things while getting my 737 type rating in preparation for a SWA interview. I guess one of the advantages of having done the type rating ahead of time is that I got a glimpse of what I was getting myself into. The nice thing is that after completing type training, I felt great about the jet and am confident that it will be a fun and rewarding job. To me, flying is like pizza--lots of different flavors, but it's all good!

 

[AlbieF15]

I like the Pizza analogy...how true!

I helped several guys knock rust off their GA skills after several years of flying F-15s. It was always interesting to see their effort (and sometimes frustration) at reversing the pitch/power rules (power controls altitude, pitch controls AS) and dealing with rudder requirements and crosswind landings. These guys were great pilots--but they had some new skills to learn (or re-learn). Anyone who has ever flown sailplanes can also attest to the touch and finess required to get "good" at it. I thought boxing the wake was a challenge at first, but towplane ops were a good first glance at what formation flying was going to be like. I've flown GA, fighters, gliders, and now airliners, and they all had their special demands. I can also say I've made a few instructors in each job earn their pay! I think when you quit learning something new you are missing one of the great joys of aviation.

Hoping with the new FO raise maybe I can spend a little bit of my money on some GA flying and share it with my girls. I love my job(s), but I can't share a FDX 727 or an F-15 with my kids. However, a Saturday flight with dad going somewhere fun might just plant a spark of interest in one of my kids, or at the very least allow them to see me doing something I really love.

 

[RJP]

Are there any good books to ease the transition from a single seat fighter to a multi crew cockpit?

It's only as difficult as you make it. Sure, you'll reach for your gear handle on takeoff-once. Sure, you'll probably reach for your own flaps on takeoff-once. However, after someone slaps your hand when you reach, you won't do it again.

As long as you're willing to learn, it's a piece of cake. No different than being a wingie and trying to adapt to each flight lead's personal style. It's just that they sit three feet away now.

Sit back, learn your flows and call-outs and enjoy having someone there to BS with on the long legs. Oh, and you probably have a stand-up toilet somewhere in the aircraft now. No more piddle-pak!

Peace. RJP

PS. It's the FO's job to bring porn.

 

[milflyboy]

Thanks guys. A lot of great answers.

I should probably have been a little more specific. I am not too worried about working the line. I have never been classified as having an ego problem and I am a good team player. So hopefully I will get it down eventually

What does concern me is the LOI at the SWA interview Having never worked a multi crew cockpit I just wanted to get a little insight into how workload is normally divided in a cockpit like that. I know they are probably just looking at my problem solving skills utilizing everybody in the cockpit, but I want to have done my homework.

I am planning on taking my Type soon and hopefully that will give me a better approach to handling the LOI.

 

[MovingTarget]

You'll do fine

Sounds to me like you'll do fine. Good CRM may come naturally to you. The problems you encounter with civilian flying may not have anything to do with your cockpit performance. Keep your eyes and ears open and watch your back. You are entering an evironment that is vastly different than the service. What you are told by your supervisors and coworkers may not always be the truth. Think of this transition as leaving a team sport and starting an individual sport--like leaving a football team to play golf. Remember that everyone out there playing the game is there to win for themselves. I wish someone had told me that. I was a little naive for a year or so. Also, be aware that there is a mild prejudice against former military pilots. That is partially our fault. A few military pilots can't make the transition to the civilian environment--they can't "let go." Those few pilots paint us all with the same brush. I keep my background in the background and I find it makes flying with a new captain or FO easier. Once they know you and feel comfortable with your abilities, it's OK to let them know. At that point, they won't be prejudiced about you. When you hear them say, "I never would have guessed you were military," you'll know you're fitting in.

 

[F18-FDX]

Unless you come to FedEx of course, where the first thing the Captain will ask you is "So...what service were you in?"

 

[AcroChik]

Not Really A Thread Hijacking

Hoping with the new FO raise maybe I can spend a little bit of my money on some GA flying and share it with my girls. I love my job(s), but I can't share a FDX 727 or an F-15 with my kids. However, a Saturday flight with dad going somewhere fun might just plant a spark of interest in one of my kids, or at the very least allow them to see me doing something I really love.

Take it from one whose dad used to occassionally keep her out of school to fly somewhere for the proverbial $100.00 cheeseburger, and who sat enthralled in the right seat long before she could even see over the panel: if you do this with your children, they will thank you for the rest of their lives.

As an aside, my dad flew A3s off the Ranger then went into business. Now I'm thinking of pursuing the tactical path. The power of early exposure and influence is vast and unpredictable.

To all of you who serve today or already have, thank you from a grateful American.

 

[RJP]

.......censored.........

 

[H82BL8T]

Fighter Pilot CRM

MilflyBoy - Not an issue. You know and have used CRM every single seat mission you have flown. Were you ever a Mission CC, 4-Ship Flt Lead, element FL? The CRM skills you used leading a 4-ship 'down-town' or at Flag, or in your own backyard are the same in a multi pilot cockpit the only difference is the pilot next you can hear you when you say "what-da heck is he doing". My transition to 'heavies' after 18 years in single seat fighters was a non event. Good luck!

 

[milflyboy]

Yes, I have used a great deal of CRM, but was merely interested in the particular workflow in a multicrew cockpit? Especially with the SWA Line oriented Interview (LOI) in mind.
If you have worked a multicrew cockpit you can always fall back on procedures that was used in your former job.

Just to take a simple example: You have an unruly passenger. Who would you send to calm him down/ give him a warning? I know for a fact that in some of the European airlines they will actually have the Captain go do this (Of course it depends on how unruly we are talking ) This is probably not policy in the States where I guess the cockpit door stays locked from T/O to LDG.

 

[RJP]

This is probably not policy in the States where I guess the cockpit door stays locked from T/O to LDG.

You are correct sir. The FAs are on their own. Just make sure the FO/FE has the crash axe in his lap.

 

[Cheesemo]

I can tell you from personal experience, that single seat guys usually do very well in the LOI. Actually, to take it one step further, the guys/gals who do well in the interviews USUALLY do well in the LOI. The key is attitude as Albie said. In the LOI, the same characteristics that help you in a single seat aircraft will serve you well in the LOI; problem analysis, effective course of action, etc. In fact, the military's standard emergency response works great: maintain aircraft control, analyze the situation, take appropriate action. The interviewers know you haven't flown a 121 carrier jet. Bottom line, I wouldn't sweat if too much.

 

[jergar999]

I don't know if this helps, but I really think it's harder to go from crew to single pilot than the reverse. I have a full time job as part of a two pilot crew and do some single pilot contract work on my days off. Every once in a while I will find myself yelling at the empty right seat to raise the gear.

One more thing for when you're in the cockpit or sim; talk. If you have a concern, voice it. If you want something done, call for it. If something looks funny there is a fully trained second opinion waiting for you.