Simuflite Right Seat Program

[BritishGuy]

Was just wondering, is anybody enrolled or 'employed' on this Right Seat Program with Simuflite? I hadn't heard of it before today and was wondering if anybody is on it and if so, do they get much time logged??

Any/All information on this would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

 

[FracCapt]

Was just wondering, is anybody enrolled or 'employed' on this Right Seat Program with Simuflite? I hadn't heard of it before today and was wondering if anybody is on it and if so, do they get much time logged??

Any/All information on this would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

I never expected Simuflite to sink to that level. One of the times I went through training there, my sim partner had to leave after the first of four sim sessions due to a family emergency. For the remaining three sim sessions, I had an employee of Simuflite in the right seat. He was a local corporate pilot(PIC in the type of jet I was doing recurrent for) that filled in when they needed somebody and he was not working. He said it didn't pay what his normal gig does, but a year of it paid for a new pool at his house. I have no idea how much he made, but he said he averaged 8 days a month(each sim session was only 2-3 hours since both people didn't have to do the left seat portion). He sure wasn't doing it for free. Run away....run far, far away..

 

[johnpeace]

Whatever...

Trading some of my time for the kind of training offered by Simuflite (and the 135 SIC checkride, and the chance at a type rating, and the opportunity to fly with members of flight departments I'm going to want a job with) doesn't look like that bad a deal to me. Where else am I going to get that kind of experience? It doesn't sound like low time, no jet, low multi time pilots are the favored applicants for biz-jet jobs (even SIC anymore).

I make a 12 mo. comittment to being on call to show up for sim sessions, and in exchange I get trained in that aircraft. In the meantime I'm working my regular flight instructor job. When it's time to go try to get a SIC job in a Citation or something, wouldn't all that sim experience and the training be a good qualification? Wouldn't you be ahead of the other CFIs applying for the same position who have never seen the inside of a jet? If you were typed and current in the equipment, wouldn't that be a doubly good deal?

I would do it in a heartbeat if the schedule requirements were at all reasonable.

Same way that I would go for a King Air ride along unpaid if the opportunity presented itself.

I don't see this as being 'dirty' or 'low' or anything...just being willing to do what it takes to build a diverse foundation of experience to better qualify myself (and get better connected).

 

[BritishGuy]

Well said JohnPeace....I agree.

 

[350DRIVER]

sink to what level? You got to be kidding me....

Please keep in mind that although CAE SimuFlite does not pay an hourly fee for performing these duties, we do pay for all of the training required for you to become a qualified second-in-command crewmember, and give you a SIC Part 135.293 checkride. As an additional incentive to our right seat crewmembers, a scholarship program has been established, which allows for the possibility of receiving a type rating in a Lear Jet, Cessna Citation or Beechjet. You will become eligible for nomination for this scholarship program after meeting the minimum scholarship simulator time requirements as a right seat crewmember with CAE SimuFlite.

You are not buying or renting a seat out.... This is actually something that will help the younger pilots with low TT get their foot in the door. They could have easily charged the applicant for this program and sure many would have paid, instead they have incorporated this program to help some. My hat is off to this company for not sinking to the levels of Tab/Eagle Jet/ and the Gulfstream's of this industry. There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever.....


great program in my opinion..

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[FracCapt]

When it's time to go try to get a SIC job in a Citation or something, wouldn't all that sim experience and the training be a good qualification? Wouldn't you be ahead of the other CFIs applying for the same position who have never seen the inside of a jet? If you were typed and current in the equipment, wouldn't that be a doubly good deal?

Ahead? Yes....very slightly...but not much. A type(or an SIC checkout, whichever applies) means nearly nothing without time in type. I've been in a position to hire pilots for jet PIC and SIC positions...and honestly, if somebody came to me with this "experience", I would pretty much consider it nothing. My big concern is the pilots that are in training that get stuck with somebody that is "filling a seat" and may not be able to provide the assistance necessary. I have turned down several contract gigs in the past because the FOs were very low time, inexperienced pilots. If there is an SIC, I want them to be able to help me when there is a need. In some cases, I would have been better off single pilot than with the SICs I ended up with.

I don't see this as being 'dirty' or 'low' or anything...just being willing to do what it takes to build a diverse foundation of experience to better qualify myself (and get better connected).

By "low", I mean that they are seriously short changing the people that are PAYING to be there for training. I, personally, would not want a 500hr SIC with no jet time along with me for recurrent. I'd be better off, and would rather be, single pilot in that scenario.

I'm not trying to bash any low timers here - we've all been there. We all think at that point that we are 100% ready for any aircraft, any situation. Very few are - most are not. In the sim, nothing goes according to plan. Things go wrong left and right. That's the whole point of the training.

 

[FracCapt]

great program in my opinion..

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Ok...let's put you with a 500hr pilot with no jet time(but 20 hours of time in the sim) for your next PC and see what you think. Hmmmmm?

 

[LJDRVR]

I feel compelled to stick up for Simuflite here. For 5 and a half years I was exposed to initial and recurrent in the Learjet program. This "program" is nothing new, it's been in place at least 10 years. The young men and women I encountered were, for the most part, enthusiastic aviators, many of whom used their experience to get a job later on flying the airplane. Simuflite actually helps put them in contact with clients after they have proven themselves. I've flown with these folks, both in the sim and in the airplane after they got their foot in the door. Completely professional, and in NO WAY even remotely resembling a PFT'r.

FRACCAPT: So a young CFI should avoid a part-time internship that will eventually result in a 8410, Type Rating, and job? All becuase the internship doesn't pay? Get real man. If you're going to come on here slamming Simuflite, then you really should step up to the bar and justify your accusations. I can't speak for anything but the Learjet side of things, but in the time I was associated with SF as a client, I experienced nothing but a professional, dedicated, hard-working bunch of people and an outstnading training culture. If a qualified pilot is available, SF will put them in the sim with the client. If nobody like the individual you mentioned is available, (They usually aren't) then you'll get an intern. They have always done it this way. Once in a while, you'll run accross a weak intern that hasn't yet been weeded out by the instructors. As a client, you simply request someone else. They are always happy to comply.

 

[350DRIVER]

I am not overly concerned with this practice.... You can't use the excuse that these guys are not "qualified" to be there, surely they have been evaluated, trained, checked out, etc, prior to being thrown into the sim with someone who has just forked over $20,000 for training. I have a very hard time believing that one would get stuck with a low timer that doesn't know his @ss from his head and if that were the case I would immediately request another sim partner or my money back. They need to uphold a reputation and I am pretty sure that they will weed the lemons out.

As for how "valuable" this time is? Without time in type I think it will do little if anything for someone that is far from 135 PIC minimums. Even at 800 hours TT with a Lear or CJ type it won't mean a whole he!! of a lot without actual time in the aircraft and no insurance company is going to let them onboard as a SIC at this low amount of flight time. I think it is a great program for the "experience" stand point not from a practical standpoint unless you already have a substantial amount of time in the equipment and are just doing this for the type and to network.

The networking factor may be more beneficial than the type long term... How well will this work? Only time will tell but I wouldn't count on being able to obtain a job right off the bat.


This has both positives and negatives as with most things in this industry... I just do not think you can put this program in the same category as the PFT outfits that you are "paying" for...



The insurance companies are the dictating factor in the 91/135 world and I don't think this program will make you any more competitive until you actually get the flight time up where you can actually be "insurable". That is the key word in the equation...

A free type rating would be nice but weigh all options when making the choice whether or not to take part in this program. The biggest question would be what will it do for you short term?


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[johnpeace]

Maybe we're thinking of the situation differently.

Back in January, when I was working on my PPL (how's THAT for 'low time' I visited Atlanta. We're going to be moving to the Atlanta 'burbs later this year, in small part to accomodate my career training and early career flying.

The last stop on my 'tour of Atlanta flight schools' was at FSI. I know a guy from another aviation forum who graduated from FSI Vero Beach with his CFI/-II/MEI and didn't know what he would do next. The waiting list for FSI instructor jobs was 9 mos backlogged. They offered him an 'internship' at FSI Atlanta doing basically what the CAE right seat program does. When I met him, he gave me a tour of the facility and let me and my Dad fly the pattern a few times in a Lear 60...one of the coolest experiences I've had.

This guy had (at the time) 5-600 hrs, 400 of which was sim time. Most of his experience in multi-engine, turbine equipment was in the sim training environment. He'd never (since graduating from CFI school) flown more than 15 minutes without a failure/emergency to deal with. He was extremely proficient with the airplane, knew the systems forward and backward and was far and away better qualified and more able than a LOT of people who fly the actual plane.

Maybe you want higher time pilots and higher time pilots only, but...after a few weeks/months of doing what this guy does for a living (similar to CAE right seat program pilots) I bet you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Of course, how much of that is the experience and how much is this individual's motivation/determination? I think the guy's drive counts for most of his ability/skill. I just think that the experience afforded by those programs, coupled with high intelligence/strong determination could produce a very desirable candidate for a new SIC in a jet. 400 hours (2 2 hours sessions a week for a year) of sim time in the training environment would have to be worthwhile experience.

I see your point about paying through the nose for this training and having to work with someone who was unqualified to fly with...but I think you're jumping to conclusions too soon. The guy I knew from FSI was WAY qualified to drop the gear, tune the radios and go through emergency checklists with you during recurrent. Obviously, I haven't been through it and don't really know what is involved, but the guy I knew just soaked it up like a sponge: sat in on every system class, talked with the instructors, practiced in the sim in his off time...really went out of his way to gain proficiency and took advantage of his unique position to learn everything he could.

Wish FSI would do a 'right seat' program in Atlanta...looks like a great way to get some pretty high end training. As far as I know, that internship program was only available to FSI students

 

[350DRIVER]

Ok...let's put you with a 500hr pilot with no jet time(but 20 hours of time in the sim) for your next PC and see what you think. Hmmmmm?

Frac,

I understand your concern and what you are saying. I just tend to put more emphasis on that person's experience, skill level, background, track record, history, etc, versus prematurely judging that person based solely upon how much flight time that he or she may have at the time.

We both know for a fact that a type rating/sim time will do them little good if anything in the "real world" (135/91)at such a low total time since they are not "insurable" to be a SIC, so now the issue becomes whether or not they are adequately trained enough to be in that position to be a good sim partner, I tend to think that they are. Obviously you have exceptions to this and I am sure a few cases could be documented that would support your opinion but I don't think what you are saying is the norm here with regards to this issue.


If they were trained, sharp, know their stuff, evaluated by program managers, etc, then throw me in the sim with one and I bet I do just fine.

You can argue this both ways but I think it would be like saying that Pepsi is better than Coke, it comes down to personal preferences more than anything else.

I know many corporate and charter departments that would never allow this practice to take place since they are paying big bucks for the training but on the other end I know just as many of these operators that could care less...


take your pick...

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[johnpeace]

I guess it's Simuflite's responsibility to provide a good training environment. How they do that should be up to them.

From my perspective, I wasn't looking at programs like this as an 'instead of' building time and experience flying, but as an 'in addition too'.

It doesn't apply to me anyway since I don't/will not live in DFW for a year, but for those who are able to take advantage of it, more power to them.

I wish FSI in Atlanta had something like this, I'd be all over doing 2-3 2 hour Lear or Citation sim sessions a week for a year!

And I'd be so highly motivated to succeed that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference (performance wise) between me and your SIC at work.

 

[FracCapt]

Completely professional, and in NO WAY even remotely resembling a PFT'r.

I never said it was anything like PFT...where do you guys keep coming up with this?

FRACCAPT: So a young CFI should avoid a part-time internship that will eventually result in a 8410, Type Rating, and job? All becuase the internship doesn't pay? Get real man. If you're going to come on here slamming Simuflite, then you really should step up to the bar and justify your accusations.

Exactly what accusations did I make? Against whom? I said that it's a bad business practice, IMO, for them to put low time, inexperienced pilots with people paying for initial and/or recurrent training. If the airplane is meant to be flown with one pilot, it will be single pilot certified. Otherwise, I want somebody that has the experience to know what to do, when to do it, and knows the best way to go about it. With experience comes good judgement. With good judgement comes safety.

I can't speak for anything but the Learjet side of things, but in the time I was associated with SF as a client, I experienced nothing but a professional, dedicated, hard-working bunch of people and an outstnading training culture.

I have to say that I have experienced the same in my 3 years as a client at Simuflite. I still, however, do not agree with what they are doing. If I am placed with an intern, I will request somebody else from the start. I have a limited amount of time available in the sim - and I want to accomplish as much as possible in that time. I don't want to just check all the boxes...I want some real experiences that I have not experienced, and hopefully never will. I've done many circling approaches, approaches to minimums, missed approaches, etc. I'm happy just checking the boxes on those...but I want as much of the stuff I haven't experienced as possible. Severe windshear, microbursts, multiple failures, high hot and heavy V1 cuts, double gen failures, etc.....and I want an SIC that can give me all the necessary help while handling them.

I guess the bottom line is that it is personal preference. I'm the client - I don't feel it is at all unreasonable for me to call the shots regarding who I get paired with in the sim.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

The thing is, the low time intern probibly can hack the work if they work hard. It isn't like they are throwing Joe Smoe into the right seat with you, the guy does have some real world experience and will have flown the sim before. You fly the sim once or twice a year, the intern flys it every week (and sees the emergencies every week too). How is that not experience enough?

 

[Timebuilder]

That's an excellent point.

Perhaps the issue may be the kind of experience. One kind is the static kind that always covers the same items, week in and week out. Checklists. Systems. Procedures. An excellent and reliable foundation for the typical 8410 ride and type rating.

The other kind of experience is gained outside the sim environment. I think the only way to gain that expereince is to be out there, doing it. This is the area where the low time pilot is deficient.

As to how well the guy in this right seat program will do, each individual will be different, and all of the low timers will need the additional real world experience that they have yet to acquire after this program.

 

[TRLpilot]

i think some of the real value is in networking. i have heard of a couple of folks that were in the program and after the sim session have the PIC turn to them and say "hey, we're going to be needing a first officer soon. would you be interested?"

i find it hard to believe that someone with a lot of sim time going through emergency drills over and over wouldn't make a good SIC (not withstanding attitude and personal matters). that's also with the assumption they have 135 minimums.

i plan on looking into it when the time comes and i have the qualifications.

 

[T-1GUY]

Simuflite

As an employee in the Beechjet program at Simuflite, I feel that I should point out a few
things that I didn't consider as an outsider at the company.

Yes, you are working for free, but you are gaining so much more.

What price would you pay to fly and meet with hundreds of prospective employers???

The typical employee at Simuflite is Older, highly experienced, and tends to have great connections
with several major airlines, military reserve units, part 91 corporate offices, and oh by the way
we have the Flight Options contract for training all their pilots.

Within four months of working at Simuflite, I have had several job offers that were pretty good
deals, however they just didn't meet my own personal needs.

My initial training was with a pilot who started out in the right seat program, worked his way into
local contract flying, and recently was offered and accepted a full-time corporate Hawker job.

He happen to get the Hawker type for free in the right seat program along with his beechjet type.

Just my thoughts.....

 

[johnpeace]

My initial training was with a pilot who started out in the right seat program, worked his way into
local contract flying, and recently was offered and accepted a full-time corporate Hawker job.

He happen to get the Hawker type for free in the right seat program along with his beechjet type.

Just my thoughts.....

Oh come on, you expect us to believe that? After all:

A type(or an SIC checkout, whichever applies) means nearly nothing without time in type. I've been in a position to hire pilots for jet PIC and SIC positions...and honestly, if somebody came to me with this "experience", I would pretty much consider it nothing.

Thanks for the inside perspective. Any plans to open an ATL campus?

 

[wingnutt]

If I am placed with an intern, I will request somebody else from the start...and I want an SIC that can give me all the necessary help while handling them.

I guess the bottom line is that it is personal preference. I'm the client - I don't feel it is at all unreasonable for me to call the shots regarding who I get paired with in the sim.

ummm...these guys arent just thrown into the sim blindly. if i recall correctly, they get an SIC checkout from the start and the type after a year. so, youd probably get a bit more help from them than you think

 

[Jump Pilot]

Right seaters go through the same initial class as the clients

Right seaters take the same part 135 SIC checkride as the clients

Right seaters take the same recurrent class and checkride as the clients