Signs of Impending Doom?

[RJP]

I'm curious if anyone has been employed at a 121 op that closed doors suddenly. Were there signs? What was going on in the last few months? IndyAir? I don't recall that being a sudden close. How did things go down there?

I ask, seriously, because many folks I know are wondering the same things. Will XX airline survive the next few months? Tons of folks are bailing and the remainder are trying to figure out what the future will bring.

Any hints would be appreciated.

 

[TAWS]

If you fly for MESA, I've heard MANY rumblings lately - that's all I'm gonna say!

 

[urflyingme?!]

TAWS you beat me to it.

"If you have a mesa logo on your badge."

 

[TAWS]

SkyWest are hiring, come to think of it, so is RAH!!

 

[RJP]

You guys are a bunch of help.

It's not Mesa. I'm not interested in who's hiring....yet.

Seriously, anyone got any experience at this?

 

[The_Russian]

I would guess......

Fuelers refusing to fuel because bills have not been paid,

Hotels refusing to room you because bills not paid,

Lastly, no paycheck 4 u!

You will know my friend, you will know.

 

[CFIT]

I was at an airline that had all the classic signs such as fuel pay and hotel pay problems and then POOF, gone.

Another airline I was at was going fine and the FAA suddenly shut them down for certificate problems.

You never know the end but it always sucks, get out early.

 

[Lopaka]

I guess it depends on the intentions of the owner of the company in question. Do they want to survive, continue operating and possibly go through bankruptcy or is there an alterior motive where closing shop would be more beneficial? Stranger things have happened but I don't see closing doors quite yet.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

I remember when we thought that TSA was going to be shut down... Had all of those signs in spades! People were leaving in droves! I left, and it didn't die... I still can't understand why...

 

[Weasil]

Watch the uppermanagement. Look for things like people suddenly leaving to go work elsewhere, selling off of stock that kind of thing. This can be an indicator.

 

[Prop2Jet]

Read the news and stay current on Flightinfo!
If in doubt don't wait it out run like He!! as you are just a #, a cog in the wheel, a feather in a wing, a..... well youget the picture.

 

[TAWS]

Don't wait ............................ RUN LIKE HELL!!!

 

[trip]

Management flying the line, getting current/types etc.

 

[Lear70]

I guess it depends on the intentions of the owner of the company in question. Do they want to survive, continue operating and possibly go through bankruptcy or is there an alterior motive where closing shop would be more beneficial? Stranger things have happened but I don't see closing doors quite yet.

BINGO!

I worked for a 121 operator back in '99-'01 and we had no CLUE that they were going to downsize until they dropped a bomb on us in early '01 that we were losing our most profitable contract.

I immediately went out and put apps in EVERYWHERE, interviewed several places, a secured a job with a delayed start until the furlough notices started going out.

Then, inexplicably, the company called back a BUNCH of people, just to operate through the Christmas season, made a bunch of money, then came in one night, disconnected all the phone lines, raided the expensive computers, overhead projectors, phone system, kicked the night dispatchers and such out, padlocked the doors, and put up a sign saying "CLOSED, NO POINT OF CONTACT".

Pilots were still in the hotels on the road, had no clue until phones wouldn't work the next day, some stayed in hotels until they were kicked out, some jumpseated straight home.

You just never know... it really DOES depend on whether the management thinks they're going to keep going or not (or plays a REALLY good game of poker).

 

[bailey3083]

Well at Vanguard, Southeast and Midway no one knew anything. The employees knew the airline was struggling but no signs that there was an Impending Doom. All of the above mentioned found out the day of the closing where Vanguard called all of the employees telling them not to come in and it was days before anyone knew the airline had shut down. Southeast did it with class by having all employees come to H.Q. telling them the airline was shut down and your last paycheck is at the door. Midway pretty much did the same as Vanguard but notified all of the airlines they had shut down so no one was allowed to Non Rev to get home.
Indy, well we knew we were in trouble when in less then a year we let almost half of our people go, 6/7 yr pilots were being displaced back to the right seat. Routes were dropped or decreased. Even though it was not to big of a shock when Indy shut down it was more depressing because all of us gave our blood, sweat and tears into that airline to see it fail but all of us would do it again as it was better then being UAL's bitch anymore.

 

[Foxcow]

BINGO!

I worked for a 121 operator back in '99-'01 and we had no CLUE that they were going to downsize until they dropped a bomb on us in early '01 that we were losing our most profitable contract.

I immediately went out and put apps in EVERYWHERE, interviewed several places, a secured a job with a delayed start until the furlough notices started going out.

Then, inexplicably, the company called back a BUNCH of people, just to operate through the Christmas season, made a bunch of money, then came in one night, disconnected all the phone lines, raided the expensive computers, overhead projectors, phone system, kicked the night dispatchers and such out, padlocked the doors, and put up a sign saying "CLOSED, NO POINT OF CONTACT".

Pilots were still in the hotels on the road, had no clue until phones wouldn't work the next day, some stayed in hotels until they were kicked out, some jumpseated straight home.

You just never know... it really DOES depend on whether the management thinks they're going to keep going or not (or plays a REALLY good game of poker).

I might have an idea but can you give us another hint as to who that was?

 

[pilotyip]

Universal

When Universal went down in the early 70's, the crews paid for fuel out of their own pockets in many cases to get home. They were told they would be reimbursed. HA!

 

[ShutupandFly]

Well at Vanguard, Southeast and Midway no one knew anything. The employees knew the airline was struggling but no signs that there was an Impending Doom. All of the above mentioned found out the day of the closing where Vanguard called all of the employees telling them not to come in and it was days before anyone knew the airline had shut down. Southeast did it with class by having all employees come to H.Q. telling them the airline was shut down and your last paycheck is at the door. Midway pretty much did the same as Vanguard but notified all of the airlines they had shut down so no one was allowed to Non Rev to get home.
Indy, well we knew we were in trouble when in less then a year we let almost half of our people go, 6/7 yr pilots were being displaced back to the right seat. Routes were dropped or decreased. Even though it was not to big of a shock when Indy shut down it was more depressing because all of us gave our blood, sweat and tears into that airline to see it fail but all of us would do it again as it was better then being UAL's bitch anymore.

I got out of Southeast 2 monts before it went under. they were constantly changing fuel brokers and having to funds in escrow for fuel before the trucks pulled up. My cue was all parts were being ordered aog on credit with no plans to restock the shelves. Yes everyone got a paycheck on the way out but most bounced. Last I heard from my friends, they had to write off that last payday.

 

[Skaff]

Even though it was not to big of a shock when Indy shut down it was more depressing because all of us gave our blood, sweat and tears into that airline to see it fail but all of us would do it again as it was better then being UAL's bitch anymore.

I never understood this. Losing your jobs, being on the streets, being forced to go to other airlines and start over at the bottom of the seniority lists is better than being UAL's bitch? I can understand that some of the pilots landed on their feet with better jobs at majors and such, but what about all of the other pilots? Why was driving your airline into the ground better than being UAL's bitch?

 

[Lear70]

I might have an idea but can you give us another hint as to who that was?

EOI, Express One International. Run by the Wikert's successfully for 15 years or something like that through a bankruptcy organization. It was a family business, it was very personal, but they finally sold it a year before this all happened. I believe they were tipped off to the FedEx acquisition of the contract and got out early.

*sigh* I had exactly 6 months in the left seat of the 727... those were some of the best days of my life up to that point. I would never, ever, NEVER have gone to a regional if they hadn't shut down. I'd probably still be there, as I had 16 days off making almost 6 figures flying 2 legs a night. Cake walk.

Oh well, c'est la vie.

 

[RJP]

Some of this stuff sounds familiar. Are you guys talking about examples like: MX not being able to order parts unless it's approved by top mgmt. Having to pay cash for parts. Running out of oil. No alcohol in MX. No staples in ops. Changing fuel companies. Selling off aircraft. Furloughs, dropping routes. People running like rats from a burning ship.

A friend of mine mentioned some of those.

 

[aussiefly]

Some of this stuff sounds familiar. Are you guys talking about examples like: MX not being able to order parts unless it's approved by top mgmt. Having to pay cash for parts. Running out of oil. No alcohol in MX. No staples in ops. Changing fuel companies. Selling off aircraft. Furloughs, dropping routes. People running like rats from a burning ship.

A friend of mine mentioned some of those.

Sounds like CAT before they shut down. Thats right they are still operating on that certificate lol

 

[ponder]

The biggie is fuel. If you ask where
the fuel truck is and ops tells you
they won't fuel because your company
hasn't paid, thats a Big Red Flag.
Maintenance can be deferred a long
time before the Feds figure it out,
but you can't go anywhere w/o gas.

 

[fried chickens]

everyone keeps mentioning fuel as a tell all sign but correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the regional board and most don't pay for the fuel. United pays the fuel for their express, delta for theirs and so on.

 

[Black Hawk]

The biggest red flags are happy grams from management touting a bright future in spite of [fill in the blank].

 

[bailey3083]

I never understood this. Losing your jobs, being on the streets, being forced to go to other airlines and start over at the bottom of the seniority lists is better than being UAL's bitch? I can understand that some of the pilots landed on their feet with better jobs at majors and such, but what about all of the other pilots? Why was driving your airline into the ground better than being UAL's bitch?

If you would have seen the contract that UAL was trying to force down our throats you would have felt the same.

 

[80for80]

EOI, Express One International. Run by the Wikert's successfully for 15 years or something like that through a bankruptcy organization. It was a family business, it was very personal, but they finally sold it a year before this all happened. I believe they were tipped off to the FedEx acquisition of the contract and got out early.

*sigh* I had exactly 6 months in the left seat of the 727... those were some of the best days of my life up to that point. I would never, ever, NEVER have gone to a regional if they hadn't shut down. I'd probably still be there, as I had 16 days off making almost 6 figures flying 2 legs a night. Cake walk.

Oh well, c'est la vie.

I know what you mean. 727s have great schedules at my airline too. Except that I make well over 6 figures but, as a F/O.

 

[Lear70]

I'm sure you do... but you don't work for a Supplemental 121 operator making six figures at 29 years old with an 18 month upgrade to CA, do you?

That was my situation, and is why I was very happy at the time, but that's not the point of my post NOR of this thread.

I'm not saying I wasn't trying to get on with FedEx or UPS or even ABX; I was, and had apps in at all those places, but it was a nice place to be even then and, after 6 years, I have YET to match that pay and QOL.

Sometimes you get lucky in life, sometimes you don't; the point wasn't to play "whose is biggest" (still wondering why you're trying to turn it into that), but rather point out the FACT that you can go from being on top of the world to bottom of the pile with little or no warning.

 

[fly4surf]

RJP,
it's just like i remember.
parts? since when did they have any?
staples? are you dreaming?
planes? "pilots hate the well performing airplane...so we are getting rid of it..."
oil? minor oversight?
gas? we have to pay for that? "but we're local."
i guess the pet project didn't work!
you know how to make a small fortune in aviation right....
good luck as always buddy

 

[727gm]

When a 121 operator starts doing flight training in the airplane.