SIC qualifications

trybysky

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This might seem like a silly question, but I don't know the answer.

What does it take to sit right seat in a plane like a Gulfstream? Part 91? Part 135? Does insurance dictate the requirements?

Lets say you owned a G V (wouldn't that be nice)... who says you need an FO that has more training then just his/her multi ifr comm ticket?

I can't find where it says you need more training??!!
 

UGAflyer

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As far as to be legal you need the appropriate SIC training as listed wherever in the FARs with the 3 take offs and landings and other training,whatever it says. I am not positive on what the reg is right off hand but could find it... but to answer your question, insurance mins are what will dictate who is in the seat, policies will differ of course. Just because you are legal, doesn't mean you're insurable. That's the way I understand the whole situation.
 

Rythm3

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In most jets, the insurance company is going to require factory school (Simuflite, Flightsafety, Simcom, etc.) 99% of the time.

They may also dictate that the pilot(s) must have X number of hours total, Y number of hours multi, and Z number of hours turbine or even straight jet. It really depends on the insurance company though. I have seen situations where a 250 hour commercial pilot with the ink still wet on his certificate could fly as copilot on a certain jet as long as they went to one of the above schools (SIC program).

It may also depend on the experience of the captain. If the captain is new to the aircraft, the insurance company may say they want a more experienced copilot, co-captain, etc. On the other hand, if the captain has been flying the a/c for years and has thousands of hours in type, they may have more flexibility on who can fly in the right seat.

Hope this helps.
 

trybysky

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yeah this is helping a lot.... so what could the faa do to me if I were to act as SIC without specific training? OR.... would it be the owners/captain's ass if we were to get ramped? I just want to know if some guy "off the street" (with mulit-ifr-comm ticket) sat right seat, what would happen to him/her???? what would happen to the owner/captain????
 

Jump Pilot

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A willingness to live on $19,000-$25,000.
 

some_dude

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It would be your ass. I imagine you would get your license suspended for a while. Most likely, nothing would happen to the PIC.

If the FAA could prove that the PIC knew that you were not qualified, they would probably do something to him/her as well, but that wouldn't change things for you.

Got something you'd like to confess?

Incidentally, 61.55 includes an escape clause for "conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment" if no passengers are carried. In that case, the SIC does not need to have completed the flight training, only be "familiar" with limitations, procedures, AFM, etc.

trybysky said:
yeah this is helping a lot.... so what could the faa do to me if I were to act as SIC without specific training? OR.... would it be the owners/captain's ass if we were to get ramped? I just want to know if some guy "off the street" (with mulit-ifr-comm ticket) sat right seat, what would happen to him/her???? what would happen to the owner/captain????
 

viper548

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trybysky said:
yeah this is helping a lot.... so what could the faa do to me if I were to act as SIC without specific training? OR.... would it be the owners/captain's ass if we were to get ramped? I just want to know if some guy "off the street" (with mulit-ifr-comm ticket) sat right seat, what would happen to him/her???? what would happen to the owner/captain????
If you acted as SIC without meeting the SIC req's, I'd bet you would get spanked pretty hard by the FAA. I don't have the FAR's on me but I think it's 61.58 or somewhere near there that spells out SIC req's.
 

2000flyer

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FAR 61.55 deals with SIC. 61.58 is for PIC.

Sec. 61.55 - Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person holds:

(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and

(2) An instrument rating that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR.

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:

(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested --

(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.

(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.

(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.

(iv) Flight manual.

(v) Placards and markings.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes --

(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;

(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and

(iii) Crew resource management training.

(c) If a person complies with the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which compliance with this section is required, then that person is considered to have accomplished the training and practice in the month it is due.

(d) This section does not apply to a person who is:

(1) Designated and qualified as a pilot in command under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;

(2) Designated as the second in command under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter, in that specific type of aircraft;

(3) Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft; or

(4) Designated as a safety pilot for purposes required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.

(e) The holder of a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section, provided the pilot:

(1) Is conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment; and

(2) Is not carrying any person or property on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.

(f) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:

(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and

(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.

(g) Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(h) An applicant for an initial second-in-command qualification for a particular type of aircraft who is qualifying under the terms of paragraph (g) of this section must satisfactorily complete a minimum of one takeoff and one landing in an aircraft of the same type for which the qualification is sought.
 

BoilerUP

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Anybody that operates a Gulfstream can spring for initial. Even with a very experienced captain, riding right seat of any plane that requires 2 crewmemebers without any kind of training is not only extremely foolish but dangerous, IMO. Some old hats can fly the thing by themselves, but that isn't the point.

I know a guy who did a part 135 Lear 61.55 endorsement in the plane which primarily consisted of a bit of airwork and 3 TOLs. I did a 61.55 at FSI and it was just a few sims and general systems training. Mostly we learned flows, procedures, performance and FMS, because the systems were relatively straightforward.
 

ManChild

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How are the feds going to know if you have had SIC training? The proof doesn't need to be with you. I would also have to say that the PIC would take the heat anyway for not having a qualified SIC. They are responsible for the flight. If your not qualified, your just a passenger. Three TO and Landings are pretty easy. Getting them RVSM trained is harder.
 

Doc Holiday

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ManChild said:
How are the feds going to know if you have had SIC training? The proof doesn't need to be with you. I would also have to say that the PIC would take the heat anyway for not having a qualified SIC. They are responsible for the flight. If your not qualified, your just a passenger. Three TO and Landings are pretty easy. Getting them RVSM trained is harder.
Who cares how the feds are going to find out??? The rules are there for a reason. 61.55 spells out what needs to be accomplished, which makes for a much safer crew than your "three TO and Landings". Having somebody bounce an airplane off the runway three times and then pencil-whipping the rest causes accidents. Accidents injure/kill people, destroy airplanes, and increase insurance rates. Insurance companies know this, and that is why many of them require operators to go above and beyond 61.55 and attend formal sim training.

And you might want to read 61.55 again. I don't think your "If your not qualified, your (you're as in 'you are' BTW) just a passenger" defense is very logical. The first sentence of the reg says "...no person may serve...", not "no operator may use".

I hope you are never running the show at any of these operations. People with your mentality hurt us all.
 

viper548

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ManChild said:
How are the feds going to know if you have had SIC training? The proof doesn't need to be with you. I would also have to say that the PIC would take the heat anyway for not having a qualified SIC. They are responsible for the flight. If your not qualified, your just a passenger. Three TO and Landings are pretty easy. Getting them RVSM trained is harder.
How does the fed know if you have a current BFR or t/o and landing currency if you have pax? The SIC training would be in your logbook, which you must produce if requested. The PIC might get some heat for not having a qualified SIC, but I suppose the person playing SIC when not qualified would face a revokation or suspension of their pilot's cert. Not to mention how f-ed up it is to put a captain in that position in the first place (without their knowledge).

RVSM training is easy. It can be done online in about 20 minutes.
 

ManChild

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I think your taking my response a little to seriously. I do think everyone should be properly trained as a SIC, actually I think everyone should be typed, but that is just my opinion. It sounds like form the first post, that the pilot is filling in somewhere. Saddly, most smaller coprorations probably will not pay for Flight Safety SIC for a temp pilot, where they will probably be running the radios anyway.

And I do believe that the PIC would have more problems with the FAA than a SIC would if ramped with an unqualified SIC.
 
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