SIC Programs-Air Desert Pacific

[RichardRambone]

Anyone know about the Air Desert Pacific SIC Program in La Verne, CA? Or any SIC program you have attended and if it was worth the time and money. I know they offer 135 training and check ride and then 200 SIC multi hours for about 7,000. Do employers care if its PIC vs. SIC when it comes to total multi time? Any info on other places you have done SIC programs and your opionions about the programs would ve great. Thanks.

 

[English]

Do a search on Air Desert Pacific. Use the search button above. I posted a TON of information a few weeks ago.

 

[RichardRambone]

Thanks for that bit of help. Sounds like its a crappy place to be. Also I guess if your gonna spend 7,000 then you might as well rent a plane and get PIC time. Dang those freaking 135 requirments. They kill me but more importantly I need the multi time. Has anyone heard about any good SIC programs? Are they worth it?

 

[scubabri]

NO.. they all suck.. go teach, then get your MEI and teach, then once you have the time, go fly cargo or something. I went through this too, as does everyone, there is no easy way around it. Don't fight it, it will only make it worse.

And if you are in that area, you might want to check out french valley aviation at F70, I hear they are needing a couple instructors.

If you are teaching and not flying enough, either go find another flight school that you can get more students or, go find your own students.

And of course, sometimes it's easier said than done, but I feel your pain. Keep at it and the time will come and you'll look back a couple years from now, and it will be your turn to answer the next post from a 600 hour pilot wondering about paying for the time

for what it's worth,

sb

 

[Flyin Tony]

Ya dont do it there planes are trash. And how would you log "SIC" in a single pilot plane? I dont know how eaglejet and all them other places give you "SIC" time in single pilot planes. Say you did the eaglejet thing, you get 250 hours in a Navajo. The navajo is a single pilot plane, so no need for a SIC. Even the B99 they run is single pilot (i think). I just have no idea why these guys/girls put down that kind of money on this crap. If I ever get a job with ameriflight when I have the time and have one of these people sitting next to me, the only thing they are going to be doing is holding my charts. Even if I have my MEI there aint no way im going to sign their log book. But I must be a a$$.

 

[RichardRambone]

Thanks a bunch guys. Ill tell you what just doing the research before jumping on one of those programs saved me a lot of time and money. Everything Ive heard is negative and that companies frown upon pay for training. I need to get my CFII and MEI just to be more competitive when my time comes. My work is based on aircraft sales so I only fly when I can and its been slow lately which means no flying to be done. Its a good job with good pay but Im cleaning more airplanes and doing too much office bs and not enough ferrying planes. Its frustrating and I was looking for a good way to get multi time but SIC defenetaly is now out of the picture. I just gotta keep on truckin and Ill get there.

 

[wheelsup]

And how would you log "SIC" in a single pilot plane? I dont know how eaglejet and all them other places give you "SIC" time in single pilot planes. Say you did the eaglejet thing, you get 250 hours in a Navajo. The navajo is a single pilot plane, so no need for a SIC.

There are several situations under Pt. 135 that REQUIRE an SIC. That's how you can log SIC in a "single-pilot" airplane. There's been numerous posts/threads on this subject. Do some research, it might help you out some day.

~wheelsup

 

[scubabri]

The only problem with the "requires sic" is that it's only for ifr, and if I recall has to be in IMC. so if you are vmc, then an SIC is not required and thus, the time is not loggable. So not a good way to build time.

But do whatever you want, the FAA is not gonna slap your wrist, I've not heard of that much, but, it most likely will hurt you on an interview with an airline. I've heard several stories of people being sent home because they were unable to justify SIC time.

You might also run up against an examiner that knows the rules, and if this time is used for a rating, like your ATP, he might discount it as well, I've heard of that happening as well.

Everyone seems to be so bent on building time the fastest way possible, but keep in mind, that "time" should equate to building experience. Otherwise if all you are out to do is build time, then just pencil the stuff in your logbook because it's all worth about the same.


It's like gambling, sometimes you may win....

sb

 

[RichardRambone]

Anyone heard of the SIC program at Pacific Wings Airline in Maui?

 

[PCL_128]

Any 135 company can require an SIC in their OM/ops specs. If they do, then the time is able to be logged as SIC because you are a required crewmember. If the book doesn't always require an SIC, then the time can't be logged.

 

[mayday1]

Any 135 company can require an SIC in their OM/ops specs. If they do, then the time is able to be logged as SIC because you are a required crewmember. If the book doesn't always require an SIC, then the time can't be logged.

i think the issue is SIC time (even if "legally" logged) in a Navajo, or some other single pilot airplane, would not impress many CPs or hiring boards.

 

[PCL_128]

i think the issue is SIC time (even if "legally" logged) in a Navajo, or some other single pilot airplane, would not impress many CPs or hiring boards.

Oh, I agree with you completely on that one. Legally, it's perfectly ok. In practice though, it's not really worth much.

 

[scubabri]

The SIC program at Pacific Wings, when I was there, was pretty good, and it came a long way from the old PFT program, but you got out of it what you put into it. You have the opportunity to use two pilot procedures, and CRM, using standard callouts, all of which will help you in later careers.

When I as there, you were required to work on the ramp loading bags, as well as some office duty, and then you were allowed to fly right seat in the Caravan.

We checked with our FSDO regarding the logging issue, and the FSDO as well as the check airmen who gave additional ratings based on that logged time were ok with it. Granted that your results may vary, I've heard stories of people being sent home from interviews because of the time not being logged correctly. I don't know the full stories so I will not comment.

The flying varies. Everything from severe clear to approaches down to minimums with heavy rain. I thought it was good experience for all of the F/O's that worked there, but like I said, you only got out what you put into it.

I don't know if the program is still the same, but I know that in my 8 months flying there in the Caravan's I had a really good time, and left on good terms with everyone.

Some were not so lucky, and there a many stories regarding the pro's and cons of working for Pac Wings. I can say that my experience was positive and I had no problems in the time that I was there.

The cost of living is expensive. Period. Do your homework and make sure you can afford to work there. if I had, 800-1000 hours and needed someplace to build up the rest of the part 135 time, this would be a perfect place.

IMOHO, If you have low low time, I think your best bet is to instruct. Build the experience and decision process before you go to someplace like this. It is real world flying with real world decisions. People crash into mountains all the time in Hawaii. It can clean your clock if you get complacient.

If you want more information, [email protected], is the chief pilot, send him an email and ask.

sb

 

[A Squared]

Any 135 company can require an SIC in their OM/ops specs. If they do, then the time is able to be logged as SIC because you are a required crewmember. If the book doesn't always require an SIC, then the time can't be logged.

Ahhhh, yes, the myth that just won't die ... you can require an SIC in your OPs Specs. Where the hell do you people come up with this nonsense? I mean really?
Go take a look at Order 8400.10, the Air Transportation Inspector's Handbook http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8400/ Volume 3, Chapter one contains *all* the operations specifications which may be issued to an operator. Find the one which requires an SIC in a single pilot aircraft. I'll give you a hint, the reason you are having difficulty finding it is pecause it *doesn't* exist. There is no operations specification which requires an SIC in a single pilot aircraft. Someone fed you a line and you're just repeating it without knowing what you're talking about.

 

[scubabri]

But 8400 is just ops specs and not ops manual. If an ops manual requires a second crewmember, and the FAA approves it as such, then they are a required crewmember.

The whole autopilot inlieu-of thing basically says that you can use an autopilot if you don't have a first officer for IMC/IFR operations. It doesn't say that if you have an autopilot that you can't use a F/O

I've been over this with two FSDO's and 3 DO's and I get the same answer from both and FAA legal reads it the same way.

Now, here is the gotcha... this is only for IFR/IMC conditions, so if the F/O is along and logging the time in VMC, then they are not a required crewmember either way, thus the time is not loggable as SIC, unless they are somehow required in an ops manual (not the ops-spec).

Again, I fall back to two things, the FAA doesn't care, as long as you follow the rules, now to the real issue is will a prospective employer allow the time, well, your guess is as good as mine.

good luck.

sb