SIC or PIC

[pa31capt]

I know this has been asked before but I can't seem to find it, in a turbo commander, single pilot a/c, but insurance requires 2 pilots do both pilots log as PIC or does one log SIC. How can the SIC be justified on later job interviews? Thanks

 

[pilotyip]

Are you going to get normal; training with a certificate of completion? Are you going to swap legs? If so, then tell them in future interviews you were a co-capt and split legs for PIC time. Do not log SIC, it is a red flag in a 91 operation that does not require a SIC by regulation.

 

[midlifeflyer]

From an FAA logging standpoint, only the sole manipulator of the controls gets to log anything in your scenario, unless you come under another regulation, such as the Part 135 regulation that requires an SIC for carrying passengers under IFR or the Part 91 safety pilot reg.

As always, the answer to the FAA logging question starts with 61.51.

61.51(e)(1)(iii) allows a non-sole manipulator to log PIC when "acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted."

61.51(f) gives you the answer for SIC.

61.51(f)(2) allows SIC time to be logged when "more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted."

Despite their power, so far anyway, insurance dictates are not "regulations under which the flight is being conducted."

That's FAA.

Whether it's worthwhile logging it separately from official FAA SIC time because it might be valuable as experience on a job application, I'll leave to others.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

How can the SIC be justified on later job interviews? Thanks

If the aircraft doesn't require more than one pilot as per the FAA; you can only log flight time if you're the sole manipulator of the flight controls.

TA

 

[FlaZoomie]

What about just logging it as multi and total time (flight) but not PIC or SIC?

 

[time builder]

If you're under part 135, check your ops specs. In many cases an SIC can be justified in the ops specs for lowered wx mins, hazmat carriage, and increasing the pilot workday from 8 to 10 hours under part 135 2 person crew regs. If you're under part 91, dunno, you might just play it safe only logging your legs.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Yup best thing to do is get the company to designate you a "co-captain" then you can log your legs (PF) as PIC. You don't get to log anything for your PNF legs. Otherwise it's a good learning experience but useless for logging purposes.

 

[midlifeflyer]

What about just logging it as multi and total time (flight) but not PIC or SIC?

Nope. I don't think so. The problem is that the FAR defines "flight time" in a way that requires that you be either required crew or giving or receiving instruction. (See "flight time" in FAR 1.1 and "pilot time" in FAR 61.1). So that non-required SIC doesn't fit.

From reading some old FAA Legal opinions, apparently there was once a general "flight time" logging category where non-required SIC would have fit, but it went away.

 

[pilotyip]

If you log SIC in an airplane that doesn't require a SIC, you may well find problems when interviewing for a future job. The people screening your log books will know the difference.

 

[Snakum]

No horse too dead to beat. :smash:

 

[Snakum]

Actually, on second thought, I need to beat this one a bit, myself.

PilotYip ... if you were looking at a potential new hire's logbook and you saw Part 91 sole manipulator time in C90s and B200s, would you be satisfied with a series of sign-offs by the Chief Pilot in the logbook (not an MEI) showing I had been trained on company procedures, aircraft systems, single-engine work, etc.?

Or would you toss me if I hadn't had Simcom initial or a full-boat course from an MEI?

I shoulda' thought about this one long ago.

 

[pilotyip]

A 900 hour pilot with 259 MEL, of which 205 is as PIC on a BE-200 would rasie some eyebrows. Everyone knows you do not turn this guy loose as the guy who signed for the airplane. The insurance compaines would not allow it. BTW I interviewed this guy about 6 years ago.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Personally, it would not bother me if the person logged it as dual received.

If they explain that it was logged as PIC/dual rec. and did not try to pass it off as though he was the actual PIC then okay.

When I interview a pilot it is to determine their competence, not as some sort of trial by fire to see if they know 61.51 inside and out.

If they have the chance to log it as PIC and it is legal, don't beat them up unless they are trying to misrepresent their capabilities.

 

[avbug]

Yup best thing to do is get the company to designate you a "co-captain" then you can log your legs (PF) as PIC.

Innovative, but wrong.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

How is that wrong? If you are designated PIC and the pilot flying that leg why can't you log that as PIC?

 

[pilotyip]

WSU, because he is not the PIC, he did sign for the airplane, he will not make the go/no go decision, he will not decide about going to alternate, he may not even decide what altitude to fly at. He is not the PIC, and everyone will know it until he has around 1000 hours

 

[CFIse]

WSU, because he is not the PIC, he did sign for the airplane, he will not make the go/no go decision, he will not decide about going to alternate, he may not even decide what altitude to fly at. He is not the PIC, and everyone will know it until he has around 1000 hours

Right - but has been pointed out so many times I can't even begin to count it, LOGGING PIC is not the same as BEING the PIC.

If you're the sole manipulator of an aircraft you're rated (and typed if required) then log the time as PIC. If you're on an interview and anybody asks about it, explain that under the FAA regulations you are entitled to log it, and you did. Point out to the interviewer that on their application form, where they asked for time ACTING as PIC you did not include that time.

You see that's why applications for companies that care include a category for time logged ACTING as PIC. People who say you should log your time based on how you'll fill out future applications are, well stupid is the word that comes to mind.

 

[CFIse]

I know this has been asked before but I can't seem to find it, in a turbo commander, single pilot a/c, but insurance requires 2 pilots do both pilots log as PIC or does one log SIC. How can the SIC be justified on later job interviews? Thanks

About the only case I know of where you can log SIC in the plane is
a) acting as safety pilot
b) under Part 135 passenger carrying IFR.

As previously posted, if you're the sole manipulator then you can log PIC, but due to a quirk in the regulations the person who is the ACTING as PIC can't log it, and I don't know how excited they will be about that. The insurance issue is a red herring, has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Otherwise it's just experience, and the FAA doesn't have a classification for that, no matter how useful the time is. You might want to keep track of the time, and one convenient place to keep track of it is in your logbook, but don't confuse the time when applying for future ratings or on job applications.

 

[Magic1872]

You can't log SIC time as a safety pilot!

Now we could get into the gray area about both pilots logging PIC.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You can't log SIC time as a safety pilot!

Now we could get into the gray area about both pilots logging PIC.

Sigh. Here's what the FAA Chief Counsel said on the subject in 1992:


==============================
In your second question you ask "how shall two Private Pilots log their flight time when one pilot is under the hood for simulated instrument time and the other pilot acts as safety pilot?" The answer is the pilot who is under the hood may log PIC time for that flight time in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second in command (SIC) that time during which he is acting as safety pilot.
==============================

It's then refers to an earlier opinion.

98% of the two pilot logging PIC are even "greyer." They've all been settlend for about 25 years.

 

[CFIse]

You can't log SIC time as a safety pilot!

Now we could get into the gray area about both pilots logging PIC.

Succinct, clear and completely wrong. Do you have any other pearls of wisdom to offer us all?

 

[Skycam]

If you are sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft for which you are rated, it is loggable as PIC time. This "signing for the airplane" crap is someone trying to rewrite or sidestep the regs.