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Bluto
Well-known member
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- Dec 15, 2001
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- 1,147
Avbug?
It is my understanding that you may log instrument time as an SIC while not acting as sole manipulator of the controls. It is simply a condition of flight, like logging night time. However, when logging approaches and landings you may only log them for recency requirements when acting as sole manipulator of the controls. You may log actual instrument time when in actual conditions whether you are the FP or NFP, as long as you are a required crewmember. At least this is my understanding.
Avbug? Some clarification please?
It is my understanding that you may log instrument time as an SIC while not acting as sole manipulator of the controls. It is simply a condition of flight, like logging night time. However, when logging approaches and landings you may only log them for recency requirements when acting as sole manipulator of the controls. You may log actual instrument time when in actual conditions whether you are the FP or NFP, as long as you are a required crewmember. At least this is my understanding.
Avbug? Some clarification please?
Instrument time is a condition of flight, as shown in 14 CFR 61.51(b)(3). Conditions of flight include day or night, actual instrument conditions, or simulated instrument conditions. If two crewmembers are required by the aircraft type certification to operate the aircraft (or the regulations under which the flight is conducted), it's rather difficult to have one crewmember flying in instrument conditions, and the other not, regardless of who is manipulating the controls.
61.51(g)(1) is the reference quoted by 328dude. An aircraft requiring more than one crewmember must be operated by both crewmembers. One is operating the aircraft as PIC, and the other as SIC.
The FAR makes no requirement to separate instrument time as SIC or as PIC, but many employers do. I've had to do this on application forms many times. In my own logbook, I differentiate between PIC-actual instrument and SIC-actual instrument, etc. In a total column, it's all instrument, but I make notations every few pages in the margin, or in a sticker, that show the breakdown.
This was discussed with some dissention on the FAR board for this site. I left a posting that shows John Lynch, AFS-640, disagrees with my position in his FAX site. He holds that only one person is operating the aircraft in an aircraft requiring more than one crewmember. This is not correct, and one will quickly learn that both pilots may be violated in enforcement proceedings, as both are considered to be operating the aircraft....usually too late.
Only one pilot may log an approach, and only one pilot may log a landing. However, instrument conditions apply to the conditions of flight, and except for simulated instrument flight, most certainly both pilots are in the same conditions of flight.
If the flight is conducted using an aircraft flight control system/autopilot, and no one touches the controls, who is logging the instrument time if no one is manipulating the controls? When FMS does the work, is only the FMS entitled to log the time? Of course not. Should only the legal PIC log the time, if it's the SIC/PF's leg? Of course not. Both pilots are in those conditions, and both pilots should log the time without respect to who is touching what.
61.51(g)(1) is the reference quoted by 328dude. An aircraft requiring more than one crewmember must be operated by both crewmembers. One is operating the aircraft as PIC, and the other as SIC.
The FAR makes no requirement to separate instrument time as SIC or as PIC, but many employers do. I've had to do this on application forms many times. In my own logbook, I differentiate between PIC-actual instrument and SIC-actual instrument, etc. In a total column, it's all instrument, but I make notations every few pages in the margin, or in a sticker, that show the breakdown.
This was discussed with some dissention on the FAR board for this site. I left a posting that shows John Lynch, AFS-640, disagrees with my position in his FAX site. He holds that only one person is operating the aircraft in an aircraft requiring more than one crewmember. This is not correct, and one will quickly learn that both pilots may be violated in enforcement proceedings, as both are considered to be operating the aircraft....usually too late.
Only one pilot may log an approach, and only one pilot may log a landing. However, instrument conditions apply to the conditions of flight, and except for simulated instrument flight, most certainly both pilots are in the same conditions of flight.
If the flight is conducted using an aircraft flight control system/autopilot, and no one touches the controls, who is logging the instrument time if no one is manipulating the controls? When FMS does the work, is only the FMS entitled to log the time? Of course not. Should only the legal PIC log the time, if it's the SIC/PF's leg? Of course not. Both pilots are in those conditions, and both pilots should log the time without respect to who is touching what.
328dude
Still turning two
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,647
Avbug: Great post but I have to disagree and agree with stingray on this.
If only one pilot is allowed to log the landing and approach, then how is both allowed to log actual? Regardless how many crew members the aircraft needs. I need to be in the plane in order for it to land (vague i know) then why can't I log the landing or the approach (I don't do it though) if I'm just running the gear handle?
If we are talking about phases of flight then is a approach a phase of the flight? If it is then is a actual instrument approach a phase or a condition? What I'm saying is that only one person can log the landing visual or actual. Fine I agree with that, but I can't log the approach in actual if I'm not flying.
Am I making sense or am I being stupid? Make the madness go away..................
If only one pilot is allowed to log the landing and approach, then how is both allowed to log actual? Regardless how many crew members the aircraft needs. I need to be in the plane in order for it to land (vague i know) then why can't I log the landing or the approach (I don't do it though) if I'm just running the gear handle?
If we are talking about phases of flight then is a approach a phase of the flight? If it is then is a actual instrument approach a phase or a condition? What I'm saying is that only one person can log the landing visual or actual. Fine I agree with that, but I can't log the approach in actual if I'm not flying.
Am I making sense or am I being stupid? Make the madness go away..................
"Flying Pilot" isn't designated. The PIC and SIC are designated positions which are fixed under Parts 121 and 135, and flexible under 91. However, the pilot flying may be either pilot.
If you are suggesting that only the pilot manipulating the controls may log the time, this is not correct.
Only the pilot who performs a landing, or an approach, may log that landing or an approach. However, conditions of flight apply to the flight generally. If a PIC and SIC fly for one hour together in instrument conditions, the PIC may log one hour of instrument conditions, and log his flight time as pilot-in-command. The SIC may log one hour of instrument time (conditions of flight), and one hour of second-in-command.
If you are suggesting that only the pilot manipulating the controls may log the time, this is not correct.
Only the pilot who performs a landing, or an approach, may log that landing or an approach. However, conditions of flight apply to the flight generally. If a PIC and SIC fly for one hour together in instrument conditions, the PIC may log one hour of instrument conditions, and log his flight time as pilot-in-command. The SIC may log one hour of instrument time (conditions of flight), and one hour of second-in-command.
328dude
Still turning two
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,647
Then why cant you log a actual instrument approach if your the NFP? It's in actual conditions.... When do you stop logging actual and the condition switches over to an approach? This is getting alittle deep into the issue but I still don't agree.
I can't see how a pilot can log actual (regardless of their position in the aircraft) if they are not the flying pilot. Are you able to log it if your on VNAV/LNAV and in actual and it's not your leg?
Im getting a headache
I can't see how a pilot can log actual (regardless of their position in the aircraft) if they are not the flying pilot. Are you able to log it if your on VNAV/LNAV and in actual and it's not your leg?
Im getting a headache
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