Shuttle Am/ chataqua

[StuckInASaab]

Nobody is being asked to roll over and die. I would like to pose a question to anyone working for either company that has posted on this thread. Put yourself in the other parties shoes.

CHQ has the nice new planes, but isnt allowed to fly them. Shuttle has the operating certificate, but no planes. Both groups are Teamsters. Both groups, for the most part are owned by the same investment money, (CHQ is public, but controlling stake is WEX.)

CHQ, Being completely honest, if you were on the other side of the table; What is Fair?

Shuttle, Same question; What is Fair?

I know that I have worked my tail off over the previous three years. I don't care that the 170s will probably be flown on my certificate at my company, I don't even want to fly them (that bad). I just want to know that if your senior captains are going to come and fly them on my list, I am afforded the same rights on your list. Allegheny and Mohawk section 3; Fair and Equatible merger intigration.

 

[Burt Gutherie]

Yeah, and a few of those CHQ guys spent there 'vacation' at camp Shuttle America.

Unfortunately, those guys were not recalled to CHQ while the rest were, that is the most upsetting.

 

[TWAER]

First of all, CHQ has the planes AND can fly them. To avoid a huge mistake by the higher ups at CHQ, there needs to be a solution in order to avoid a big penalty.

Second, this whole merger thing is a big big rumor that nobody can confirm.

Third, I hate to tell all pilots at SA, big fish will swallow small fish. Period!! Not to say that in any way against the SA pilots, but them the facts. 1200 vs 100. 650 of our more junior pilots WILL NOT VOTE YES for any DOH if that is what it comes to.

SA may have the op. Cert that CHQ management needs, but not what the pilots at CHQ need. Big difference. This is yet another mistake by management that I am sure the pilots at both companies will pay for.

Good luck to all

 

[StuckInASaab]

From what I've heard all is done but the ink drying. Let this be said, the teamsters have a method for integrating seinority. Teamsters = EQUAL REPRESENTATION!!! Numbers don't matter...ask Mesa, CCAir and Air Midwest.

Allegheny and Mohawk Article 3 Fair and Equitable!!!

 

[cargoflyr69]

Speaking of fair and equitable representation, can anyone give a short history on how the seniority lists were integrated at other carriers such as Mesa (air midwest, ccair, midway, etc) and Eagle (Simmons, wings west, executive, etc)? History is bound to repeat itself

 

[StuckInASaab]

Also include if the were represented by the same national unions!!!

 

[tyuwerty]

Sorry to burst the chq guys bubble but, both companies have valid and binding contracts. The 170's on Shuttle's cert mean that the shuttle guys have a legal right to the work. The merger clauses in the CHQ contract give the pilots there a legal right to the flying as well. Any aquisition or merger of operations does not nullify either of those contracts. Quite the conundrum......

The Teamsters are not going to roll over on the SA pilots as they will faces multiple DFR lawsuits if they do. No other small company would bring them in for represtation for years to come. The Shuttle pilots are not going to ratify any LOA that staples them all to the bottom of the CHQ list.

Shuttle has been eating the losses on the saabs for 3 years which provided the parent the opportunity to expand with the money they got from the IPO. Even if they haddn't, the shuttle pilots posses the value of the certificate which apparently republic needs. This in itself would guarantee them an equitable merger.

You are most likely looking at date of hire or some sort of a ratio merge to keep the relative seniority of each pilot intact within one large list. If everyone can't play well together, you will see that the International will impose a merger on both pilot groups.

All feelings and emotions aside that is what is really going to happen.

 

[Viper1948]

Latest. . .

Saabs will be going
170 flying will be under Shuttle Cert by Shuttle and CHQ pilots
ORD base possible
Contracts will be honored

 

[KingAirer]

Reallly?! an ORD Base???

 

[Weasel Keeper]

Thought CHQ was already working on (or has) an ORD base.

Whatever happens, best of luck to all parties involved (and keep the FWA hangar! ).

 

[RAV152]

ORD base as of June.

 

[Viper1948]

>>>Reallly?! an ORD Base???ORD for SA

 

[FrustratedCFI]

This is all conjecture. We may do something drastic to avoid paying a penalty for AMR scope violation but we don't really need the SA certificate. One thing to point out is that we really don't make money on our AMR deal so we could just drop them.
As for a merger with SA, I distinctly remember that we expended some of the negotiating capitol of the CHQ pilot group to get SA pilots preferential hiring at CHQ. That was only until we found out they went to Wexford behind our backs to undercut us during negotiations. If that is true, then if a merger happens SA pilots will be lucky If my vote goes to keep them at all, let alone anything but the bottom of our list.

 

[HughBeamont]

As for a merger with SA, I distinctly remember that we expended some of the negotiating capitol of the CHQ pilot group to get SA pilots preferential hiring at CHQ.

75% of the Beech FOs I have flown with at Colgan who have had interviews at CHQ have been hired. Don't act like preferential hiring at CHQ is a big deal unless you're talking about CFIs.

SA has 100 pilots. Don't get your panties in a bind.

 

[I.P. Freley]

As for a merger with SA, I distinctly remember that we expended some of the negotiating capitol of the CHQ pilot group to get SA pilots preferential hiring at CHQ. That was only until we found out they went to Wexford behind our backs to undercut us during negotiations.

Funny how two different groups can look at the same event differently...

SA pilots were only offered preferential hiring at CHQ as part of the excellent year-long 10% pay cuts that were dumped on the Captains as a way to keep the company solvent a year and a half ago... and only if SA shut down during that year.

What we wanted was a JOB if SA shut down, not a "preferential interview". CHQ expended some of their negotiating capital to make sure it wasn't a JOB at CHQ, just a nebulous "pref hiring" clause, that's what we (or at least I) remember.

That said, please explain how, and at what point, SA's union "went to Wexfprd behind our (CHQ's) backs to undercut us during negotiations". I don't have any idea what you're referring to, so lay it on me. The only thing I can think of is the bogus lower pay scales (Mesa -10%) that the company wanted in wage concessions for jets, which was never approved or even voted on if I remember correctly.

 

[TWAER]

This is all conjecture. We may do something drastic to avoid paying a penalty for AMR scope violation but we don't really need the SA certificate. One thing to point out is that we really don't make money on our AMR deal so we could just drop them.
As for a merger with SA, I distinctly remember that we expended some of the negotiating capitol of the CHQ pilot group to get SA pilots preferential hiring at CHQ. That was only until we found out they went to Wexford behind our backs to undercut us during negotiations. If that is true, then if a merger happens SA pilots will be lucky If my vote goes to keep them at all, let alone anything but the bottom of our list.

Hate to tell ya but you are incorrect. We cannot just drop the AA flying, due to the large termination payment, which is larger than the APA penalty. Also, why give up the best performing product that BB receives a nice bonus on. Also, we need another CERT. The UAL deal, which we just got another extension for, also requires the planes to be moved off the CHQ cert.

 

[KingAirer]

SA pilots were only offered preferential hiring at CHQ as part of the excellent year-long 10% pay cuts that were dumped on the Captains as a way to keep the company solvent a year and a half ago... and only if SA shut down during that year.

That was voted on, and passed by SA. But again I would have no problem, and think it would actually be good if SA came under the RAH.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Don't forget that the SAAB's that the SA pilots fly were transferred from CHQ and gave alot of CHQ guys a long vaction. Some will not forget.

I missed a whole page of posts on first read and just stumbled upon this nugget...

Let me get this straight... You blame SA for Chautauqua's "firing" those pilots? "Some will not forget"??

You're aiming your ire at the wrong group, Burt.

Kingairer... You say "relax", that everyone is Teamsters and it'll all work out. It's people like Burt here who make sure that noone at SA is going to relax, and I'm just using him as one example.

I can't speak for anyone at SA, but having worked there for three years I know more or less how they think. The pilots there, especially the people who've been there for a couple of years or more, were gambling all along that some growth would come their way once the Mother Ship decided to do something with their asset other than fly out the leases... Just like YOU gambled when you went to CHQ that the company would grow and you'd be sittin' pretty in the left seat.

Now it appears that they ARE going to do something with that asset, and the people who have been taking it in the shorts all this time (not "recently" as Burt would have you believe) don't deserve to take it in the shorts AGAIN with a "staple to the bottom" maneuver. Yes, it is Wex/CHQ's fault that they find themselves in the situation that they have to pay AA if they don't come up with another scheme. But if they're utilizing the company that those hard-working folks at SA kept running under some of the worst imaginable circumstances all this time (and remember just about everyone in the company had a paycut and/or pay freeze at one time or another), how about taking a moment of your time and recognizing that SA's people deserve something out of this, too?

Be angry with CHQ, not the people at SA. Legally connected at present or not, this is a "sister company", not some outfit that has no connection at all to CHQ or RAH... Part of the same team and all that. Don't #$%& your cousin, my friends. This can only help the long-term viability of both companies.

 

[KingAirer]

IF this were a Jets deal that could go to CHQ or SA based on some pay rates, I doubt any SA pilots would want to hold hands and think "dont F your cousins".

 

[I.P. Freley]

That was voted on, and passed by SA.

The pilot group voted down a pay cut by a ratio of roughly 92%.

Shortly thereafter, official communiques were sent out alerting the WHOLE company that they were starting to spin down the operation, including a timetable of the company's shutting the doors... and the unsaid accusation was "you can thank the pilots for this".

So... A different thing was voted on, wherein only the CAPTAINS would take a paycut. Naturally, EVERYONE in the pilot group was able to vote on this, meaning the FO's were able to vote for a paycut for Captains. Naturally, the threat was "vote this in or we go through with shutting you down".

How did this affect CHQ's contract?? How on earth do you blame SA's pilots for undercutting you?

 

[I.P. Freley]

IF this were a Jets deal that could go to CHQ or SA based on some pay rates, I doubt any SA pilots would want to hold hands and think "dont F your cousins".

You're not making any sense, man... We didn't vote in any concessions in pay to "steal your flying". We voted in pay concessions to keep the bloody DOORS OPEN. Any assigning of jets based upon existing pay scales would've been nobody's "fault", not to mention that I don't see how SA getting, say, a dozen jets as compared to your... what, over a hundred now, certainly... as effing CHQ's pilots.

Basically it sounds to me that you simply want all the jet flying for yourself, and ANY jets going to Shuttle would be screwing you guys. That may be understandable, but what it also is, is selfish, selfish, selfish.

 

[BoilerUP]

Now I could be a fool for even stating this, but...

Has anybody talked to their union leadership about this? It seems that the CHQ and SA union leadership should be talking, if they haven't been talking for some time now.

Until an announcement, its all conjecture. Be prepared for what might happen, but don't let one group get positioned against the other, at least not at this stage in the game. Don't let management win this battle even before it starts.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Now I could be a fool for even stating this, but...

Has anybody talked to their union leadership about this? It seems that the CHQ and SA union leadership should be talking, if they haven't been talking for some time now.

Until an announcement, its all conjecture. Be prepared for what might happen, but don't let one group get positioned against the other, at least not at this stage in the game. Don't let management win this battle even before it starts.

Nah, boiler, your post makes more sense than anything anyone has posted... My own included.

Word is the unions are supposed to meet this coming week, although it would be naiive to assume they aren't already talking.

You know the phrase, "May you live in interesting times"?

 

[StuckInASaab]

I second the don't let management win the game before the first pitch sentiment. I don't want to take your flying, I just want to be afforded the same opportunity of growth for my hard work over the previous three years.

 

[cargoflyr69]

CHQ, All your Embraer are belong to us!

Could not resist

 

[I.P. Freley]

All your Embraer are belong to us!

*whispering*

Let's just hope at least one of them saw the movie!

 

[Yankee301]

Everyone says merger, but Chautauqua would purchase SA, and if a vote is put to the CHQ pilots, it will be a stalple, no doubt. The flying of the saabs would be fenced until they are phased out, then the sa guys could bid where their seniority would hold.

 

[Weasel Keeper]

CHQ, All your Embraer are belong to us!

Could not resist

Somebody set up us the Saab!

 

[I.P. Freley]

Everyone says merger, but Chautauqua would purchase SA, and if a vote is put to the CHQ pilots, it will be a stalple, no doubt. The flying of the saabs would be fenced until they are phased out, then the sa guys could bid where their seniority would hold.

If Chautauqua bought SA, they wouldn't be able to get the 170's off the certificate... So that idea doesn't hold much water.

RAH buying SA, now THAT makes sense.

 

[captain evil]

I think everyone has it wrong. Shuttle is going to buy RAH and CHQ. Mark my words, Shuttle America will be the Regional Airliner of the year next year. The Saab 340a is making a come back.