Shoulder-fired missiles

[Typhoon1244]

I was listening to Fox 4 News-Dallas last night. It seems that in light of recent events in Kenya, the Office of Homeland Security is urging airlines and airport administrations to be "on guard" for similar attacks.

That's nice.

HOW THE F_CK AM I SUPPOSED TO DO THAT? I fly a Canadian-built fifty-seat jet. No chaff dispensers, no ALQ-144 "disco ball," no IR suppressors on the engines...heck, I don't even have a rearview mirror. "On guard?" Okay, even if I do see a missile coming, what do I do about it?

Here's an idea: how about if the airlines and airport administrations do their best to stay in business, and let the Office of Homeland Security actually try to do its job and keep the missiles from getting here in the first place?

Or wouldn't it be refreshing if the CIA, FBI, NSA, etc. would just come right out and said that they're totally incapable of keeping sh_t like this from happening?

(Okay, venting complete. I'm off to the shower...)

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

First off, I think you are SOL if a missle is shot at you. Having said that, I would chop the power to reduce your heat signature as much as possible and roll into a 90 degree bank and pull hard and pray that it misses you.

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

I would chop the power to reduce your heat signature as much as possible and roll into a 90 degree bank and pull hard and pray that it misses you.

 

[Heyduke1]

How are you supposed to know someone's firing at you? My impression is that they'd probably shoot at airliners from behind after departure, in which case you wouldn't know what was coming until it was past you....is this incorrect?

 

[avbug]

Don't get too worked up, yet. The good news for those in a lather is that most of smaller man portable surface to air devices aren't likely to blow you out of the sky. The explosive charge isn't that big and that's not what it was designed to do. It's designed to slow you down. The intent is to shut down or destroy a powerplant, not obliterate you. These weapons just aren't that big.

Some of them are, however. Some of them have already been found, and used, in the continental US.

Don't underestimate our intelligence services. They're not omniscient, but they do a credible job of getting what information they can. The fact is that it doesn't take something as exotic as a MANPADS to take you down. A mechanic leaving a tool in the wrong spot (intentionally, or accidentally) can do it. The fueler can do it. A chef preparing crewmeals can do it. Nobody would ever know until far too late, and those responsible will be long gone.

This isn't news. It only illustrates the fact that the object of terrorism is being met. Terror. Fear of missles, attacks, whatever. The truth is, all these threats are not new. They've existed for some time, and have occured before. The potential for threat is very high, always has been. It's just that now people are starting to pull their heads from the sand and wake up to the fact.

I carried knives on my belt for years while jumpseating or flying places as a passenger...to say nothing of when flying as crew. I always maintained that sooner or later someone would take one of those "innocent" little 3 inch blades to a crewmember and hijack a flight. I was told that was a stupid notion. After all, everyone told me, what's so intimidating about a razor blade, three inch knife, box cutter or utility knife? Well, now everybody knows.

I maintained for years that if I were a terrorist, I'd hijack a large airplane such as a 757 and fly it into a large building such as the WTC. Why? Because it was an obvious target. A school kid could have figured that out. However, when I brought up that thought among other pilots, invariably it was put down as utter nonsense. Outlandish, everyone said. Belongs in a fiction novel. Not really, it belongs in the forefront of our thinking, because weather or not something has happened, it has the very strong opportunity to become reality. The only way to prevent that from happening is to wake up.

I have maintained that GA aircraft represent a significant threat. While flying one into the side of a capitol building or other public target likely wouldn't make a dent, the psychological impact is potentially enormous. The effect it would have on our industry and the economy in general is incalculable. To launch a simultaneous attack in this manner in several states would be catastrauphic. Collateral damage? Not much. But the impression, and the reprecussions throughout the industry, would be masive. Yet whenever I bring this up, I'm laughed right out of the room. Why? People haven't awakened to the danger yet...it takes a disaster before that happens, and then it's too late.

The soloution? Wake up, before another ragheaded band of nutcases go do it.

I was severely ridiculed for discussing the events surrounding the shootdown of TWA 800 before. A dozen of more "experts" posted here to tell me such a thing wasn't possible and quite likely a few more will again. Couldn't happen, wouldn't happen, that thinking belongs in a novel or a movie somewhere.

It's true that the official reports do not show TWA 800 as a shootdown. The official record shows an explosion in a center fuel tank, a low order detonation and deflagration. While this did take place, the wiring wasn't the impetus, but rather a foriegn ignition source which exploded adjacent to that tank. That's not nearly so important now as the fact that it can happen again.

Airlines and airport management are alerted to be aware of the threat. They can do more than those of us in the cockpit. We're victims when it occurs, not saviors. Sometimes you can do everything right, and still lose. An RJ or Airbus or B737 is not a tactical aircraft, and shouldn't be treated like one. It's a transport that can easily become a target.

Security goes far beyond what we can or can't see in the cockpit. It goes to every citizen, every person who hears or sees. Small things, anything remotely suspicious. If people are made aware, people participate. One wouldn't hardly believe how effective programs such as America's Most Wanted are. Increadibly so. A fugitive may go for years without discovery. But put his or her picture on the television, and within days or a week he or she is caught. People are made aware, and soon there's nowhere to go.

The very same thing needs to be done for terrorism. People need to be made aware that these things are possible, and even likely. People need to know what to look for. Just saw a new neighbor move in? Hey, we're living adjacent to the airport. He sure didn't have much furniture. Just some long wooden crates. Maybe he's an artist. Maybe not. But it won't hurt to check out an artist...it may hurt a lot to wait until something gets launched from the back yard.

Don't think it's futile. It's not. There is a lot that can be done. Recognizing the threat is only one step of many. We all play a vital role. Cockpit crew to cop to doctor to baby sitter. Each role is very small, but very vital. We can sacrifice our lives to the police state in the name of security, or we can increase our awareness as a culture and society. I vote for the latter. Stopping terrorists and criminals needs to be done early, before they strike. Waiting until you see the trail or the gun or the flash is rather like jumping from a bridge and then wishing for a parachute. Just a hair late.

I'm sick to death of hearing the ridicule that security practices catch. I'm sick to death of hearing people whine about shoe removal, slight delays, additional checks and measures. Small prices to pay, and upholding them while they evolve into something better is more than good citizenship, it's a duty. We all have a duty, and an example to set. Each small part affects the larger whole; we enhance security by the way we park our car, by the way we watch out for our neighbors, by the way we view our place in our society.

We are not united. We are not a brotherhood. But unless we learn to be, we're going to die...as a community, as individuals, as citizens. Watching our for our neighbor isn't just an ancient golden rule, but the rule to live by today. The car parked where it shouldn't be. The individual at a game who isn't cheering or who isn't watching what the rest of the crowd is watching. The person who never does anything wrong, who strives to never draw attention to himself...the one you wouldn't notice because he isn't noteworthy...why do you suppose that is?

We can all do something, and the place to start is arming yourself with some education. I'm not talking history or geometry. I'm talking about an understanding of things as they are, and as they may become if we're not very careful. Learn to appreciate the fact that these things aren't just in the movies that they really happen, and that they can happen to you. Support security measures, and make an individual effort to provide constructive input to the individuals, leaders, and agencies that are shaping security. The back it up 100%, because failure to do so only weakens the effort.

I'm done.

 

[mar]

A short tangent

Avbug--Sir, with all due respect, airport security is a bloody JOKE!

You wrote: "I'm sick to death of hearing the ridicule that security practices catch. I'm sick to death of hearing people whine about shoe removal, slight delays, additional checks and measures."

Shoe removal is absurd! What if the next terrorist hides explosives in his/her afro/beehive? What will the reaction to that be??

I remember quite clearly, soon after Sept 11 you wrote about the box cutters and small knives and how their ban will NOT contribute to security *because* if one is creative enough *any* object can be a weapon....and you submitted the example of a pen or pencil.

See. I do listen.

I happen to know a Captain that flys heavies intercontinental. He carries a length of piano wire coiled in his cap.

But I digress. Back to the security issue: There are only two things in my opinion that will increase our security.

1) Gestapo style tactics with a complete lockdown on airport property (no catering, etc) and complete documentation for every person that happens to be on the property--won't happen because the American public won't tolerate anything more than one-hour check-ins.

and

2) A major change in foreign policy. Why do we send billions of dollars to Israel in the form aid, F16s and M16s when we could use that money here at home? If we let Israel stand on their own would Americans still be resented abroad? Probably. Would the fanatics have a reason to attack us *and* them (the Israelis)? Most certainly not.

But unfortunately neither of these two will happen because we're just in too much of a rush and, well, you figure out the rest, but personally I'm tired of sending my tax dollars to a nation that had a minister (assassinated last year, in fact) who referred to the Palestinian people as "parasites."

Israel seems to me to be a nation that has forgotten it's history and is unworthy of our support.

I apologize for the bias but what we're experiencing here in the US is not simply the work of some "ragheaded band of nutcases."

Fanatics, yes. Nutcases, no.

They're organized, middle-class, educated. They have an agenda and the impetus is our continued support of their sworn enemy.

You want security. Stop the aid to Israel.
I'm out.

 

[Snoopy58]

> You want security. Stop the aid to Israel.

Stopping aid to Israel out of a desire for "security" would only demonstrate that we will do what the terrorists want if they can cause us sufficient pain or fear.

Bad plan.

As far as sympathy toward the palestinians, the last drops of that evaporated when I saw the pictures of their celebrations over there when they heard about the mass murder on 9/11/01.

Questions?

 

[Typhoon1244]

Here's what bothers me about security: the flying public is screaming for ethnic profiling. Why won't the feds get on the bandwagon? I thought our "elected leaders" in Washington were supposed to do what the people ask.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Don't get too worked up, yet. The good news for those in a lather is that most of smaller man portable surface to air devices aren't likely to blow you out of the sky. The explosive charge isn't that big and that's not what it was designed to do. It's designed to slow you down. The intent is to shut down or destroy a powerplant, not obliterate you. These weapons just aren't that big.

Thanks. That'll take a huge load off my mind after the right engine and the horizontal stabilizer are blown off.

It's all a question of odds. If a SA-7 hits a 747 in the number four engine, it could probably fly around like that all day. If the same missile hit my airplane (CRJ-200) in the APU, it'd probably blow the tail off.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not in a "lather" about this issue. I'm just irritated and saddened by our government's total inability to deal with the terrorist threat. Hans't anybody been listening to the news? The friggin' Australians tipped us off to a possible attack in Kenya, and we blew them off!

Wanding grandmothers, making people take their shoes off, fingerprinting airline pilots, the entire office of Homeland Security...it's just like "duck and cover" in the Sixties. It's all there to make us feel like the feds are doing something useful. They're not...not because they don't want to, but because they can't, not without turning this into a police state.

Think I'm out of line? Listen to this: after September 11th, the FBI refused to subpoena firearm purchase records as a method of locating potential terrorists. Why? Because they didn't want to have to answer to Charleton Heston, Bob Barr, and the rest of the NRA. We will go to all lengths to pursue terrorists...unless it interferes with Billy Bob's right to hunt ducks with an AR-15.

It doesn't take a genius or a history major to see that non-conventional warfare has always kicked this country in the butt. It's one of the hazards of living in a democratic society. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to live in a police state any more than the rest of you.

But if this really is a "war," then let's start treating it like one: lock the borders and give the military (not Tom Ridge) the tools it needs to protect us.

 

[ShawnC]

First off, I think you are SOL if a missle is shot at you. Having said that, I would chop the power to reduce your heat signature as much as possible and roll into a 90 degree bank and pull hard and pray that it misses you.

KlingonLRDRVR

As the missile barely missed you your windows fills up with that brown thing, it starts at slowly at first but soon the entire window is filled. Soon you relize that if you hadn't cared about the missile and let it hit you, you might have made it back to the airport, but now you actions have doomed you and your passengers. Though it is too late for you to pass that lesson on since soon you will be dead.

Didn't we have a topic just like this except it was a poll?