Should I forget about the majors?

[Fred_IP]

Something smells fishy here. How do you survive the military flight training regimen, qualify in the C-5, qualify in the Beechjet, earn a 737 type, flight instruct in the military, fly for a year in the civilian 121 world, pass your upgrade ride and then get washed out in IOE?!? There has to be more to this. What's the rest of the story?

Well, I started at the company in the CRJ, but accepted upgrade to the EMB-120 as a Captain after just 6 months. I was actually Part 121, out of CRJ school, for just 4 months "on the line" (mostly on reserve) before going to EMB school. I had never flown the EMB-120 (or any turboprop) before. Additionally, the tempo of my miltary flying was different than the Part 121 I was encountering. Ultimately, it was NOT being able to do the airport operations as a brand new captain, in a new aircraft, new to Part 121, that did me in.

I honestly felt I was up for the challenge, but it was too much, too soon. It was risky, and I felt I could do it -- but I was wrong.

So I don't think I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell to be hired by the majors or even a regional, with this so fresh on my record. The market is just too saturated with pilots who don't have such things on there records. Due to family situation, I won't be able to get to a Reserve unit until this Fall at the earliest. Besides, I'm not entirely positive an AF Reserve unit would take me if they found out about this.

I honestly don't know how to dig out of this hole! I think, as many have suggested, that going back to the military might be the only was to pad this failure with successes.

Anyone know of another pilot not completing training, but still able to recover from a situation like this?

Thanks

Fred

 

[satpak77]

Fred

36 posts later since your original and you re-asked basically the same question. I think you know the answer. In my opinion you may have a confidence problem, which was not helped by your Part 121 situation.

It is my opinion (and alot of guys on here) that you CAN recover from this, but its not up to us, the forum, to God, its only up to Fred. You have a choice in front of you to recover from this. You can get up off the ground and pick the bike back up and ride it, or you can stay on the ground with skinned knees and elbows and never get up. In the end, you decide.

What is the reality? Today little hiring is going on at the majors, altho 2005 is arguably going to be a "good year" for hiring. So this year, fresh in January 2004, make this "recovery year." Try to get another job and show that employer how much of an asset your are. Send a resume to Simuflite or FlightSafety. Etc.

It sounds like your recent situation was a one-time event in your career, put some "buffer" between that and your airline job, fill it with good recommendations, experience, etc.

just my .02 cents

 

[Stinkbug]

Good advice, satpak77

Satpak77 is right on. The only way a failed IOE event will keep you from getting another airline job (even a major) is if you choose to let it. My observation has been that very few mistakes in this profession are insurmountable. Pilots have been hired at the majors with far blacker marks on their record than a busted training event (DUI's, violations, etc.). I have a personal acquaintance who landed at the wrong airport when he was a Part 121 turboprop captain. He thought his career was sunk. To be honest, so did I. A year later he was hired at one of the big LCC's (I won't mention which one for anonymity's sake). He's been loving life ever since and in all likelihood is a captain by now. Moral of the story - get back on the horse. Get those resumes out, keep networking, and ultimately you'll get there.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Fred_IP,

You may be pleasantly surprised how little this "failure" will haunt you. The most important thing, IMHO, is how you discuss it (if even asked) during an interview. Turn it into as positive of a learning experience as you can. Accept total responsibility and emphasize what you did and are doing to make that weakness a possible strength in the future. Everyone has failures, its how we deal with them that show the interviewer how you will do in their training program. By all means get that reserve job and continue to pursue flying experiences ASAP. Flying time between your failure and interview will help.

On the other hand, I think Albie's comments may also be valid. If you realize you need to study hard to make the transition to civil flying work for you, make sure you do it. If unable look for other career opportunities.

Keep in mind the perceived advantage you have with the military background. Everyone knows you have what it takes to pass rigorous checkrides.

 

[satpak77]

See you at the majors

Fred

Again, pick the freakin' bike back up and get on it. You can do it. "spin this" into a positive experience (actually it probably has many beneficial aspects).

See you at the majors

 

[~~~^~~~]

Well, I started at the company in the CRJ, but accepted upgrade to the EMB-120 as a Captain after just 6 months.

Fred : Whoa there. The Emb - 120 is not an easy airplane, not an easy type, and a lot of folks have had a difficult time with it. When I went through that airplane the class before mine had 7 out of 12 wash out by the end of IOE.

Complicating factors is that the E-120 is not at all like the CRJ, or anything you flew before.

You may find that this bust is understood completely by folks in the 121 environment, particularly those who know that airplane well. Our airline allowed pilots with a good attitude to fly as FO's for six months then come back and try it again. I think everyone did much better the second time around. There are enough pilots walking around with pink slips courtesy of the E120 at ASA to completely understand the problem you faced.

That little E120 likes to go sideways and at first it is a handful just to fly smoothly without the added thinking that goes along with working with a co pilot who may have also just transitioned into the airplane.

Some of us regional guys have learned to fear the "I'm ex-military and superior to you guys" attitude. A story like yours takes the "I'm better than you" edge off and besides, not many airlines are hiring into E120's these days - that pointed nosed, prop overspeedin, torque monster is on its way out.

 

[peepsmover]

Of Options and Dandruff

Count your blessings. You are not presently, "living in a van down by the river." You have your health and potential for a really cool job, and you don't eat your dandruff, and you've might have had an intimate encounter with a women these past five years, granted it might have cost you some bucks but thats a check in my win column.

First, revisit your case. Were company procedures followed, were proper opportunities afforded to others provided or offered to you as well? Were the policies or procedures themselves proper and reasonable to begin with? Just because the company says it is reasonable does not make it so. Lastly, where was the union in all this, ultimately I'm not certain a company that chooses to discard competent pilots who are unable to upgrade is even worth worrying about, in short as someone stated earlier they may have done you a favor.

Ultimately check with your union attorney or have a labor attorney look at your case, perhaps there were some other external factors affecting your performance that the company was aware of, and therefore should have afforded you more time. Maybe you were rushed through training, or perhaps there may have been a bias against you being a "flowback" (or an IP bias) and you might not be alone. Perhaps even a settlement might happen where you promise not to sue them and they promise to say that their training program was screwed up, but you have elected not to return to them. Still all this legal puffery might be just a big pain. Unless you have a strong case you are wasting your time and supporting some shyster's college kids.

Still, we are our own best critics and self assessments prior to upgrades or checkrides tell us what weak areas need fortifying. There are a lot of peers who have been there, tap into them, get the gouge, ask them how they deal with all that 121 stuff as it pertains to your operations or potential scenarios, in short don't go into a situation like that again with your pants around your ankles.

You've proven you can fly as an AC in international ops, where there are even less resources to tap into, so you know you can take that same skill set and apply it elsewhere. Your setback is nothing for anybody to sneer at; still, learn from your setback and resolve to overcome it, because setbacks are part of life, its how you deal with them that make you ultimately the best you can be on your terms doing what pleases you most.

If you need an immediate game plan, then rejoin a reserve unit, or if you need something much quicker than that, then join the IMA program, get signed up for some tour as there are a ton of opportunities for rated geeks to bless an Op with their presence. All the while you can work your return to the cockpit, whether that be mil or civ, but given your civ setback a win in the mil colum as in checkride should be a priority, it would boost your confidence and allow you to make a play for an Air Op that provides flexibility in determining whether you want to upgrade or not. Remember, you have invested a tremendous amount of work into your career, that has a value to it in both money and an intangible sense of self, unless it no longer holds the twinkle in your eye then change vectors, if not, saddle up, dude! Best of luck!

 

[Dignan]

Posted by ~~~^~~~:

The Emb - 120 is not an easy airplane

That little E120 likes to go sideways

not many airlines are hiring into E120's these days - that pointed nosed, prop overspeedin, torque monster is on its way out.

Hey, man, go easy! Some us have to go get in that thing tomorrow. Now I'm scared...

Just funnin'. Take it easy.

D

 

[SKYW Pilot]

Stop baggin' on the E-120! So it's loud, vibrating, and you actually have to use the rudder, but it holds a special place in my heart! I am curious, though, which airline has the up or out policy. Pilots here at Skywest always talk about an up or out policy, but there's no such thing. Ya... sure... they want you to upgrade, but I know guys who have been F.O.'s for years. Plus, if you choose to upgrade, they bend over backwards to get you through. Good luck with the future. Looks like you just had a hard time transitioning from the military flying to flying Regional 121 flying. Whatever you do, don't give up! It's definitely not easy!

 

[SWAdude]

Southwest has a true up and out policy.

SWAdude

 

[Caveman]

Fred,

Thanks for the rest of the story. It now makes a bit more sense to me. Having only 6 months airline experience in one airplane and then trying to upgrade to Captain in the Brasilia is IMHO a fairly daunting task. All you are guilty of is biting off a bit more than you could chew. History is chock full of very famous folks that had multiple big time failures and yet are mainly remembered for their final successes. Own your failure and use it to your advantage. If nothing else it will make for an interesting topic of discussion at your next interview. You'll get to talk about what you actually learned and experienced instead of answering another canned 'what if' question. Don't sweat it. You'll be fine in the long run.

 

[donger]

Fred,

I have a very close friend and fellow pilot who had one of the blackest marks a pilot can have on a record.

A CRASH that resulted in the complete loss of the aircraft. No deaths or injuries (key).

He is now flying G-IVs for a large company in California making a very nice living.

Sure his confidence was low and he thought to himself "who would want a pilot that crashed a plane on landing?!"

It is absolutely amazing what a positive attitude and goal setting will do for a career. He learned from his accident and moved on with his life.

Encouragement from your peers is important and helpful, but the real power lies within you. Your desire to fly will have to be the flame that carries you through this little bump in the road. You may have to question whether or not you are flying because you truly love it and want to do nothing but fly, or if you are flying because you are afraid you can't do anything else.

It is only normal to spend time on the pity pot, but eventually you have to flush. So fisinsh up, get the job done and GET OUT THERE!!!

Donger

No more yanky my wanky
The Donger need FOOD!

 

[BlondAmbition]

Fred,

I just heard yesterday that the Flight Engineer for that NWA flight where all the flight crew were drunk is now a pilot for American Airlines. Also, an astronaut got turned down at SWA. Don't let all of these comments shape your future! YOU shape your future. If you hold your head high and go on proudly, then so will your career.

Best of Luck

 

[Russ]

Who knows, this could be a hidden gift. Not being away from your family four days a week isn't that harsh a punishment. You probably wouldn't have made it this far without a great degree of ability. Channel it twords some other field and you will find success. Good luck.

 

[80/20]

This can happen to anyone. I know of similar cases with happy endings! Don't give up.

 

[CALformerCALX]

First of all...sorry you were let go. Should not have happened and any smart company would put you back in the right seat for a pre-determined amt. of time and allow you a later shot.

But with that said. Having lots of both Check-Airman time and now union leadership experience I can tell you that my recommendation on probation is never create unnecessary risk. In other words if you had waited just 6 more months your check ride would more than likely been past the one year mark.

At CALX years ago, early nineties, we saw this with guys/gals on probation. Just wait. You hired on at shi**y pay so deal with it for 366 days. No reason to lose a possible career over 6 months or less.

So where do you go from here. I say right back in the fire. CALX will soon hire. Comair is hiring, as well as others. Get in there. Explain it and someone WILL hire you again. You have excellent experience. But if I was a recruiter and saw you went to the regional from the military then went back to the military with your head between your legs I would question your desire to pay the price in commercial aviation. Make this a positive. I F^%$ed up! Got up and I'm back to make it right. I'd hire you in a minute with that attitude. Plus you probably will spend a little longer time with this second comapny and they will like that oportunity. Let's face it. You won't be leaving for a major as quickly as another guy with your experience in the military.

I would almost guarantee that if you went to an AirInc. seminar and got face to face with some top regional interviewers you'll be back in training in no time.

Hope this helps...

 

[CALformerCALX]

Gee, let me guess, you must of been an AA flowbAAck! You guys are a bunch of losers. You AArogangt bastards think that we are not good enough to fly jets, well you have PROVEN that you are not good enough to even fly our "little" "barbie" jets! What a joke, go back to the military and fly the Fred, like that's going to help!

You know nothing about professionalism or unity. Attitudes like yours is why pilots have lost ground to the public, polititions, and corporate bean counters over the last three decades. Pilots like you are why at times nothing gets accomlished to further our profession. You relish failure by others that make your failures seem less. I'll bet you wear a Rolex or a Brietling as well.

 

[roadrunner]

SKYW Pilot:
SkyWest sure as heII does have an up or out policy! I know personally one guy that failed out of sim last year before he even got to the checkride! They never even told him it was his last shot, or gave him the option of going back to the right seat before using his last shot in the sim. I have heard that they will give you many opportunities to pass, but it didn't work out that way in this case. Unfortunately, a year later, the guy can't even come anywhere near another flying job. I feel pretty bad for him.

 

[SKYW Pilot]

Sorry to break it to you, but at Skywest you have the CHOICE to upgrade when you'd like. If you don't think you're ready and you choose to go anyway, YOU (not the company) are putting your job in jeopardy. If you are uncomfortable with the airplane or not ready to assume the responsibility of a captain, then WAIT and choose to upgrade at a different date. The company hires Captains... not First Officers. But at Skywest, you always have the option to wait. The company has a very fair training program and if the pilot's here have a good attitude... I repeat... GOOD ATTITUDE and want to succeed... the company will do what they can to get the person through training. After investing all that time and money into a pilot, do you really think the company wants to fire pilots? Don't think so... Take care!

By the way... I'm sorry the guy was fired. It really sucks. It's never a good thing to have a pilot out on the street. God knows there are WAY too many jobless pilots right now with families and mortage payments. I knew when I was going through training that my job was on the line. I started studying for upgrade a year before I knew of the class. Even though I thought I was ready, I was still scared #%^less about my job. It's that fear that scared me into studying and preparing til my head was about to explode!

 

[Dieterly]

I was still scared #%^less about my job

Gotta be a great place to work at...