Share the Bust?

[GravityHater]

A) You are type rated but not for single pilot ops. You are in the right seat.
The PIC is the same; type rated but not for single pilot ops and he is in the left seat.

The airplane is allowed to exceed an operational atc limit (altitude, clearance limit, whatever).

Do you both take the fall? Or just the PIC?



B) Same scenario, but now PIC is single pilot authorized.

Do you both go down, even though you are not required crew?


All 100% fictional, just wondering.

 

[Flying Illini]

Let me follow up (you may have been alluding to this) with this.

A captain and I had this discussion the other day...not sure who is right.

Say we're in the Falcon 10 or 20. We bust something. The captain said that it's his ticket on the line, not mine. My argument is that since we are both required crew members the bust goes to both of us.
If we were in the King Air 200 and only he is the required crew member, then I said that the bust would go on his ticket, not mine.

What's everyones thoughts on this?

 

[flyfastinmy10]

I have seen a small number of "busts" at my previous company. Fortunatly I was never involved. These were altitude deviations and in all cases the Captain was held responsible. The Fo was off the hook.
The only action taken was a letter in their file.
I think in most cases of minor deviations, if action is taken, It's the Captain's ticket.

 

[BigPappa]

We have a rule of thumb where the PF is the person whose name is on the Flightplan, and he's in charge therefore responsible if something happened. We're both typed and we swap seats every other leg or so.

 

[avpro91]

I'd have to agree with Illini, I fly a B200 single pilot quite often and there is usally one of the other guys from the company filling the right seat to make the pax feel more comfortable. But if I busted something he wouldn't go down, hes not even listed as a crew member on the manifest. In an a/c where both of you are required crew however, I think it all depends on how the FAA sees it. We had a couple of guys bust an altitude on a checkride, Line Captain and IP and I believe both of them got letters in their file. I've also heard of just the captain going down for the same thing.

 

[avbug]

Make absolutely no mistake; the first officer may be violated just as easily as the captain.

Cases have been made in which the first officer was violated, but not the captain. The circumstances of the event must always be taken into consideration.

If you are acting as a required crewmember, you may be held liable for any actions taken in the aircraft.

That the pilots involved are type rated for one or two pilots isn't necessarily material to the discussion.

If the pilot flying is single pilot rated, but you are acting in a capacity as a required crewmember, and you fail to take actions that prevent an altitude violation that brings you in into a position of conflict or hazard to another aircraft, you may reasonably be expected to face enforcement action.

If you are the first officer or captain of an aircraft, any ratings not withstanding, that violates airspace (such as a presidential TFR), you may expect to be the target of enforcement action. Weather you are the pilot flying or pilot not flying, the captain for first officer, you may be held liable.

As a first officer you have a duty to ensure that the flight remains under control and safe, and that the flight does not violate regulation. The degree of your culpability will be determined in any subsequent enforcement action; it is impossible to say, without very specific details of circumstance, how that enforcement action might play out. Suffice it to say that as a required crewmember, you share in the responsibility, and the punishment for any unsafe acts or violations of regulation or law.

 

[sky37d]

aH, SOME THING I HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE OF!!!


Someone I know is a pilot. He was right seat on a piston twin commander. The twin commander busted ADIZ (Bahamas - FL) without an operating transponder. Both individuals got to visit with the FAA, and INS, and Customs. The person I know kept insisting that while he was in fact a ME pilot, he was not flying. Didn't matter in the end.