Shades of 1991 at LAX...this time it's SKW/SWA

[aa73]

deleted... lemme try again.

 

[aa73]

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Two planes came within a few hundred feet of each other last week when a controller at Los Angeles International Airport mistakenly cleared three planes for the same runway, officials said.

``It was pretty close,'' said Les Dorr, a Federal Aviation Administration spokesman, said. ``We'll be looking to find out what all happened, and how we can prevent it in the future.''

Friday's episode began when the controller directed a departing Skywest turboprop to taxi onto the same runway on which he had cleared a Southwest Airlines jet to land. He also told an Air Canada jet that it could cross the same runway on its way to the terminals.

The Skywest pilot saw the incoming Southwest jet and stopped short of the runway. The jet roared past about 275 feet away and 50 feet above the smaller plane. It landed without incident and never got closer than about 5,600 feet to the Air Canada jet, Dorr said.

The FAA has not determined why the controller put the planes so close together or switched the Southwest jet to a different runway as it came in to land.


The airport has had one of the worst runway safety violation records in the nation in recent years. The city's airport agency is spending $328 million to give planes on the ground more room to maneuver.

 

[Rogue5]

Yeah, but this time it would've been a 73 and a Brasilia, not a 73 and a Metro.

You can still see the groove marks in the north taxiways where the fuselages slid...

For those who don't know:

Date / Time: Friday, February 1, 1991 / 607 p.m.
Operator / Flight No.: USAir & SkyWest Airlines / Flights 1493 & 5569
Location: Los Angeles International Airport
Details and Probable Cause: Collision between aircraft. Originating at Syracuse, New York, USAir Flight 1493, a Boeing B737-300 jetliner (N388US), made stops at Washington, D.C., and Columbus, Ohio.

Inbound to Los Angeles International Airport from Columbus and carrying 83 passengers and a crew of six, the jetliner began its final approach and was cleared for a landing on Runway 24L at LAX.

At the same time, SkyWest Airlines Flight 5569, a twin-engine Fairchild-Swearingen SA.227AC Metro III (N683AV), a commuter flight bound for Palmdale with 10 passengers and two crew members on board, was cleared by LAX air traffic control (ATC) to taxi into its takeoff position and hold on the same runway.

The descending USAir 737, upon touchdown on Runway 24L, smashed into the stationary SkyWest Metro III and the two mangled planes, fused together, slid down the runway, crashed into an unoccupied fire station, and burst into flames.

Sixty-three passengers and four crew members aboard the USAir 737 were able to scramble from the burning jetliner and reach safety, although 30 were injured, 13 of them seriously. However, 20 fellow passengers and two crew members on the USAir 737, and all 12 persons aboard the crushed SkyWest Metro III, were killed.

An error by the air traffic controller, in positioning both planes in a collision situation, as well as inadequate policies and procedures at the Los Angeles air traffic control tower, were the causes named in the disaster.

Fatalities: 34 -- 22 on the USAir 737; all 12 aboard the SkyWest Metro III.

 

[Noserider76]

Constantly trying to get the shortcut, ie, the takeoff runway for landing to shorten your taxi time, puts stress on the controllers. I hope this rush to save 2 minutes doesn't wind up getting someone hurt. Kudos to the Skywest crew.

 

[Skyrunner]

Wedge!!!!

Constantly trying to get the shortcut, ie, the landing runway for takeoff to shorten your hold-short time, puts stress on the controllers. I hope this rush to save 2 minutes doesn't wind up getting someone hurt.

Then don't clear aircraft to land on the departing runway. You're a genius, TOOLBAG!!!!!!

 

[[email protected]]

<Constantly trying to get the shortcut, ie, the takeoff runway for landing to shorten your taxi time, puts stress on the controllers. I hope this rush to save 2 minutes doesn't wind up getting someone hurt. >

So, tell me how this is Southwest's fault?

The news report said...
"Friday's episode began when the controller directed a departing Skywest turboprop to taxi onto the same runway on which he had cleared a Southwest Airlines jet to land. He also told an Air Canada jet that it could cross the same runway on its way to the terminals."

I guess I must have missed where it said that Southwest told the controller to do this?

I guess that the 2004 incident http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040830X01323&key=1 (also involving Southwest) was there fault as well...

 

[Dan Roman]

I think what noserider is trying to say is if SWA asked for 24L to try and save time (Normally aircraft land on 24R and depart on 24L) it could be considered a contributing factor. As the controller could accidently slip into his normal habit pattern of clearing people to take off on the left and land on the right under periods of high work loads and stress.
That said, we have all asked for different runways to save time, not just SWA. BUT, you can't argue that a culture of rushing around when your flying doesn't reduce your safety margin. It does.

 

[canyonblue]

BUT, you can't argue that a culture of rushing around when your flying doesn't reduce your safety margin. It does.

There is no culture of rushing around, at least not with me. If there was in the past, it is not here now. I have never been rushed or accepted any command that was unsafe. Where do you currently work Dan? You argue that SWA has a culture that reduces safety, so tell me where you work and how your airline is without any incidents. You sound like my friend at Northwest who joked with me about how we always seem to be going off the airport. I told him, at least it's the RIGHT airport. Stone thrower.uke:

 

[Capn Butthead]

I love it when people say we rush around and it is dangerous. Look at our safety record compared to other airlines in the US. We fly to many a lot of airports many times a day and dont have many safety issues. Just because we ask for shortcuts and do things to help out does not make us unsafe, but it does make us one of the best airlines out there.

I have worked for several airlines before, and SWA is by far the safest out there. It is because of our Attitude and desire to get the job done that we are in the position that we are in. As my friend said above, he who is perfect cast the first stone, he who is not cast the stone and get your self cut by the falling glass.

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

Actually it is the same amount of time to land 24r with flaps 40 and take the reverse. But what do i know im just some dum inbred coonass SWA pilot.

 

[viper548]

Congrats to the SKW crew for excellent situational awareness!

 

[BRA]

There is no culture of rushing around, at least not with me. If there was in the past, it is not here now. I have never been rushed or accepted any command that was unsafe. Where do you currently work Dan? You argue that SWA has a culture that reduces safety, so tell me where you work and how your airline is without any incidents. You sound like my friend at Northwest who joked with me about how we always seem to be going off the airport. I told him, at least it's the RIGHT airport. Stone thrower.uke:

I've found that any kind of a rush rush attitude usually varies with who ever the PIC is. Any airliner can be in a rush if that is how the PIC runs things.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Actually it is the same amount of time to land 24r with flaps 40 and take the reverse. But what do i know im just some dum inbred coonass SWA pilot.

Hmmmmm...and Flaps 40 burns approximately 30 lbs more fuel from 1000 ft than flaps 30. OK....then there's the straining on the seatbelts as the PF gets on the brakes so hard thst his harse is 1 inch off the seat.....

Oh yeah, that'll work....

Tejas

 

[bestpilot]

Congrats to the SKW crew for excellent situational awareness!

Duude!! Right on, my brother. Dem dudes did it alll right by like lookin ot da window!

Aww Yeeah cause dat could a been real freakin nassy

 

[Dan Roman]

There is no culture of rushing around, at least not with me. If there was in the past, it is not here now. I have never been rushed or accepted any command that was unsafe. Where do you currently work Dan? You argue that SWA has a culture that reduces safety, so tell me where you work and how your airline is without any incidents. You sound like my friend at Northwest who joked with me about how we always seem to be going off the airport. I told him, at least it's the RIGHT airport. Stone thrower.uke:

Canyon, I'm not throwing stones at SWA. I don't think it's an unsafe airline by any means. I'm not "anti" SWA either. I have to laugh at these guys who say your going to have financial proublems too. You have the money and management to weather any changes that occur in our industry. I've just seen you guys taxing around like Tony Stewart from time to time and have heard second hand stories of SWA being in a hurry. Rushing IS less safe than going slow. In your favor, everyone who flies for you has a LOT of 737 time and a LOT of take-offs and ldings in type. You guys all all very current, but any one can get bit. My point is none of us should be cocky. We all live in glass houses.
In answer to your question, I work for Hawaiian. We have been around since 1929(not me, the airline) and have an excellant safety record (lot of luck involved too.). I guess you could say we were the first high frequency short haul airline. We went through a period of guys rushing around inter-island for a long time. We seem to have improved and guys are no longer rushing as much. As a result, we have had far fewer incidents and a much safer operation that is more comfortable for the pax's. In the past we have had our fair share of speeders and they did cost the airline more than they saved by "rushing" around inter-island.

 

[TR4A]

Hmmmmm...and Flaps 40 burns approximately 30 lbs more fuel from 1000 ft than flaps 30. OK....then there's the straining on the seatbelts as the PF gets on the brakes so hard thst his harse is 1 inch off the seat.....

Oh yeah, that'll work....

Tejas

You wimps. Make taxiway W.

 

[FlyBarneyJets]

Hmmmmm...and Flaps 40 burns approximately 30 lbs more fuel from 1000 ft than flaps 30. OK....then there's the straining on the seatbelts as the PF gets on the brakes so hard thst his harse is 1 inch off the seat.....

Oh yeah, that'll work....

Tejas

I can do it flaps 30 without touching the brakes until 80 knots. So can just about every other SWA pilot that I've had the pleasure of watching. If Falcon wants to do it Flaps 40, then cool! There's nothing wrong with that either!

Fly your own jet.

BTW...props to all pilots involved for keeping their ears open.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I can do it flaps 30 without touching the brakes until 80 knots. So can just about every other SWA pilot that I've had the pleasure of watching. If Falcon wants to do it Flaps 40, then cool! There's nothing wrong with that either!

Fly your own jet.

Hey....thats OK....just don't complain when the profit sharing ain't where it oughta be....burn that extra fuel....who cares?

Tejas

 

[FlyingSig]

Sounds a lot like this incident where SWA was the one who almost got landed on...

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040830X01323&key=1

Seems like the folks at LAX have a few issues to work out.....

 

[canyonblue737]

BUT, you can't argue that a culture of rushing around when your flying doesn't reduce your safety margin. It does.

What company are you talking about because it isn't the one I fly for with canyonblue paint schemes. There isn't any rushing around here and if there ever was it is long gone so take your misguided beliefs and reconsider your comments.

 

[canyonblue]

I've found that any kind of a rush rush attitude usually varies with who ever the PIC is. Any airliner can be in a rush if that is how the PIC runs things.

Not in my cockpit, and I'm a Check/FO. Seriously, I do it at my pace and if the Captain has to wait, the Captain has to wait. What's he going to do, tell the CP I won't rush, this isn't a Benny Hill skit. Dan, my apologies. Maybe it's LAX and my wife is on the Concrete Pad.

 

[Donsa320]

Not in my cockpit, and I'm a Check/FO. Seriously, I do it at my pace and if the Captain has to wait, the Captain has to wait. What's he going to do, tell the CP I won't rush, this isn't a Benny Hill skit. Dan, my apologies. Maybe it's LAX and my wife is on the Concrete Pad.

What is a "Check/FO" ?

DC

 

[starchkr]

Ummmm...i really don't see what the big deal is with this "incident." First the SKW pilots did what they are supposed to do, and that is look out the window for other traffic before proceeding onto a runway. Second, how is laterally @275' and vertically @50' any different than the usual hold short position at the end of any runway? I would say that you are much closer to the active runway than 275' when you are at the hold short line, and if you are at the end of the runway then you should also be within 50' vertically from landing a/c (i could have sworn all performance numbers were based upon crossing the threshold at 50'). I don't know, just a few observations of a non-sense story here.

 

[ReportCanoa]

What is a "Check/FO" ?

DC

Making sure the gear up/down motion is fluid.

 

[pedropcola]

Maybe I missed your point starchkr, but this is more than a nonsense incident. Who cares if they stopped at the hold short when they saw traffic on short final and that 275' is a normal distance when holding short. The big deal is that three a/c were cleared onto the same runway in the same time frame. That is a huge deal, throw in wx, nighttime, or just plain old not paying enough attention and this nonsense event can hurt alot of people. If I missed your point then feel free to enlighten me.

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

hey tejas,

that 30lbs i burn on final is a lot less than you taking da grand tour of lax . you can also make the reverse with little braking, so who is wasting the profit sharing?

 

[canyonblue]

What is a "Check/FO" ? DC

It's a joke, some Captains complain about F/O's that take the fun out of a 3 day trip. Some guys call them Check/FO's (ie: Checkairmen). They usually make a beeline to the CP Office to report on the latest violation of the FOM. Then someone poops in their flightcase.

 

[starchkr]

pedro...yeah, you are right...I kinda got stuck on the whole distances part and didn't really think too much about the rest...my bad. I agree that the 3 a/c being cleared onto he same runway at the same time is bad, no doubt about it, and if that is the case, then there is only one person responsible for the problem, the controller. As far as wx, i also agree that it could have been worse, but nighttime and not paying attention would not have been good excuses. Our job is to "pay attention" and when we don't it bites us, and these guys did just what they are trained to do...watch for other traffic. Hope that helped clear up my point there pedro...

 

[Occam's Razor]

SWA guys aren't dangerous...

...I'm dangerous!

 

[jhill]

Constantly trying to get the shortcut, ie, the takeoff runway for landing to shorten your taxi time, puts stress on the controllers. I hope this rush to save 2 minutes doesn't wind up getting someone hurt. Kudos to the Skywest crew.

your'e an ignorant jacka$$