Seniority List Integration Pinnacle & Colgan

[Yodafly]

Lets say hypothetically that someone wanted this either management of either company or one or both Pilot groups wanted this.

I have heard allot of talk that only a pilot group with an alpa contract would have negotiating power on how this integration would happen. I admit I don't know too much about how this all would come about but find it hard to believe that the Colgan pilots, in this case, could not have equal representation at the table with or without a union on property. Colgan pilots could and would definitely put all there voices into one of our own as a negotiator.

I know the Pinnacle Pilots have some merger protection in there contract to abide by alligany/mohawk integration which even at that is no staple for either group. With this in mind Colgan's growth and equipment size with the Q400 over the next year or two is predicted to be much greater then Pinnacle putting the companies on a much more even playing field using this merger integration.

I am sure I am missing something so could someone explain why the Pinnacle pilot group would be in a position to staple or control how seniority integration would happen.

 

[PCL_128]

I admit I don't know too much about how this all would come about but find it hard to believe that the Colgan pilots, in this case, could not have equal representation at the table with or without a union on property.

Why do you find it hard to believe? The law gave the Colgan pilots the opportunity to have a seat at the table, but they turned it down. You can't expect "equal representation" when you willfully turn down the opportunity for said representation. The situation doesn't change if a merger takes place.

Colgan pilots could and would definitely put all there voices into one of our own as a negotiator.

They already had the chance and decided not to. Their next opportunity is in 358 days. I hope they choose more wisely next time around.

I know the Pinnacle Pilots have some merger protection in there contract to abide by alligany/mohawk integration which even at that is no staple for either group. With this in mind Colgan's growth and equipment size with the Q400 over the next year or two is predicted to be much greater then Pinnacle putting the companies on a much more even playing field using this merger integration.

I am sure I am missing something so could someone explain why the Pinnacle pilot group would be in a position to staple or control how seniority integration would happen.

Alright, now that I've sufficiently scolded the "no" voters, I'll actually answer your question.

There are two different possible situations here: a merger initiated by management, or a merger achieved through collective bargaining or as a result of a successful lawsuit/grievance by PCL ALPA. The two situations could have very different outcomes:

1. Company initiated merger - If the company were to decide to merge the two airlines without being forced to by grievance, federal lawsuit, etc..., then the company is bound by the language in Section 1 of the PCL contract. That language references the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions (LPPs) that you referred to. In this case, since the Colgan pilots have no union representation, then management would represent the interests of the Colgan pilots in a seniority integration under the LPPs. The LPP process is similar to ALPA merger policy, but doesn't contain the same merger guidelines. In other words, the process begins with negotiations, moves to mediation, and then to arbitration. You're correct that under this situation, a staple would be unlikely. However, it's also unlikely that the Colgan pilots would come out very well in the end. The Colgan group is very junior, has no career expectations of flying jets, has no binding work-rules, etc... My best guess is that an arbitrator would put most Colgan pilots towards the bottom of the list, but give them seat and equipment protection so that they aren't displaced.

2. Merger forced by ALPA through negotiations/grievance/lawsuit - In this case, the LPPs as cited in the PCL contract don't apply because the merger is being negotiated as a settlement between only two parties: PCL ALPA and management. Because of this, there are no guidelines and no formal process to protect the Colgan pilots at all. The Colgan pilots have no voice and no seat at the table. Their future is being decided merely by what the PCL MEC is able to negotiate. If the MEC were to decide to use their negotiating capital to achieve a staple, then there's nothing to stop this and protect the Colgan pilots.

However, knowing the PCL MEC, I seriously doubt that they would try to actually staple the Colgan pilots. The problem is that they have a balancing act to deal with. The Duty of Fair Representation demands that PCL ALPA negotiate to the best of their ability to achieve the best possible outcome for the pilots that they are legally responsible for. ALPA only represents the PCL pilots in such a case, so they have no DFR responsibility to the CJC pilots. So, they would have to balance their desire to not "screw over" the CJC pilots while at the same time doing their very best to represent the pilots that they have a DFR obligation to.


Would have been a whole lot easier with ALPA merger policy, Colgan 155!!!

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
As a member of the 151 I am still in a state of disbelief over the events leading up to the vote and the disappointing result. There is quite a bit of apathy and ignorance among the CJC pilots. Coupled with an attitude of being here "just for the quick upgrade and PIC time". Also, the large number of bases created a very fractured level of support amongst some bases. Vastly different attitudes and perceptions between the majority of SAAB pilots and Beech pilots also served to undermind the organizing efforts. I am not trying to generalize or stereotype the SAAB guys into blaming them, but the fact remains that may of the 155 fly the SAAB.
Now, that I have given some of my opinion on why the vote failed, I will guess as about what may happen in the future. Any reasonable PCL pilot will see that we have a divided pilot group and there was no mandate given to managment that everything is running like a finely tuned watch. Because on many levels it is NOT.
PCL's MEC is obligated to perform their duties to enforce the contract they have with PCL managment. However, I think that they probably realize that it is going to be a loosing battle to enforce scope to prevent any "new" flying from going to Colgan Air. I have no doubt that PCL's lawyers were ready to deal with either contingency. Now, it's a matter of who is going to blink first in court and has the resources for a long court battle. Unfortunately, this mess is not of either pilot group's creation. Agreeing that an ALPA represented CJC pilot group would have mitigated the "S*** Sandwich we are all going to have to take a bite out of.
If one were to use GO-Jets (aka career CRJ-700 pilot airlines) as an example this is where we are all heading. What does anyone ever hear about all that ruckus anymore. Nothing. This is what is going to occur here too. Reference one of my previous paragraphs about going blind in litigation, meanwhile the "Qs" show up and start flying on CJC's property and more orders to fill Bombardier's order book for years to come. Their will be an outrage from the PCL guys and gals (well justified), but in the end nothing is going to stop the juggernaut that is PCL Holdings from rolling over by brute force BOTH pilot groups. Can ALPA stop it? Probably only slow it down.
Where do we go from here? Personally, I really don't know. Just keep going to work and see what the next day brings. However, I am not going to buy into anything that any manager has to say any longer about the "great" future and opportunities for all employees here at CJC or PCL. It's all a big "smoke and mirrors" lie with nothing substantial to look at in my wallet at the end of the month.
I used to see a real sense of urgency in what I did for a living. I no longer feel this way. I do strongly feel that my duties should be conducted professionally and safely. Best of luck to the PCL guys and to my fellow CJC pilots. Time to nut up and deal with the consequences of our actions.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[Yodafly]

Thanks PCL_128 for the info...

I like Kaman was disappointed with the outcome of the vote but now have to put it behind us for now.


As far as any attempt at forced intigration by PCL Alpa that would not serve anyone's best interest.

Not good for Alpa's wish to have Colgan pilots choose them to represent.

Not good for PCL management because we would likely shut the place down and stop flying. Not a good time to be trying to replace 500 pilots.

and lets face it, these days you never know how the list would actually be put together, Its not always as you would expect it and I don't think either group wants to take that chance

 

[cjcpilot]

Little off topic, but i thought to vote was shy by 4.

Assuming a flat 50% or more was needed (i don't know what would have happened in a tie), we should be thanking the 159 who voted no.

A vote of 151-155 would have been a loss by 2 votes (or 3 if over 50% and not 50% or greater was needed). With these numbers, 2 more yesses would have been 153-153.

 

[DoinTime]

As far as any attempt at forced intigration by PCL Alpa that would not serve anyone's best interest.

Not good for Alpa's wish to have Colgan pilots choose them to represent.

In a forced integration the only entity left would be PCL ALPA. There would be no need to organize the Colgan pilot group as the Colgan pilot group would ceise to exist in any official capacity.

Not good for PCL management because we would likely shut the place down and stop flying. Not a good time to be trying to replace 500 pilots.

Are your pilots going to band together for a common cause like you did last week? If so, management isn't worried about a thing.

Colgan is just a place to build time right????? Why do the Colgan pilots even care?

 

[PCL_128]

As far as any attempt at forced intigration by PCL Alpa that would not serve anyone's best interest.

Actually, it would serve the best interests of everybody except management. The situation right now is a disaster waiting to happen. At any moment, management can exploit the current situation and start whipsawing the two groups.

 

[Poahi]

This is going to be a long, long, long thread......

 

[TurboAWD]

.

Not good for PCL management because we would likely shut the place down and stop flying. Not a good time to be trying to replace 500 pilots.

Rightttt...thanks for the laugh.

Most of your guys couldn't be bothered to vote one way or the other, and they are going to "shut the place down"?

The up side: If you do get stapled (not going to happen, but for just for giggles), you will already have the KY ready from what Pinnacle Mgmt will be doing to you.

Turbo

 

[BoilerUP]

From the ALPA Administrative Manual, Section 45 (Merger and Fragmentation Policy)

The whole document might be some good reading if you are a Colgan pilot...

E. NON-ALPA OR UNORGANIZED AIRLINES
SOURCE - Board 1986; AMENDED - Executive Board May 1998

When the circumstances surrounding a merger preclude adherence to ALPA Merger Policy, i.e., where a non-ALPA or unorganized pilot group is involved, reasonable steps shall be taken by the President to seek acceptance of a procedure that will enable the parties to proceed to a fair and equitable resolution in a timely and expeditious manner.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
Interseting times that we are living and witness to in the airline industry. I am waiting with a pessimistic view of what is going to happen in PCL Holdings future. Not just Colgan Air. I don't think that a staple job is going to serve the interests of either pilot group. Unless there is a perverted desire to punish everyone for the lack of 51% of our pilots not voting. Keeping in mind that if this happens we have to share a cockpit together. We aren't scabs and we didn't do anything wrong or damage your pilot group.
The corporate culture here in CJC is so beyond screwed up that I could write a novel. Maybe, I am opinionated or outspoken on this, but perhaps some of my fellow CJC pilots might agree. They are still in the mentality of having 125 pilots flying EAS in the Northeast in alot of ways. Some of the senior management knows we need to change, but whether their influence or experience will be heeded is an open question. Colgan is "proud" of their long history of "starting" many airline careers, but do they really think that is realistic and reasonable to expect to grow this company to perhaps 1200 pilots flying over 100 aircraft in 5-7 years? Like I said, it is going to be an interesting thing to watch unfold.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[flatspin7]

"Where's my stapler?"

That would be funnier if I could post an image

 

[Kaman]

Ladies and Gentleman,
I copied this from a thread begun by another flightinfo member, so I hope that he isn't thinking I'm trying to steal his thunder Some of you guys in CJC that have flown with me or have run into me recently have heard me addressing the biggest enemy to the airline pilot profession. FOREIGN EQUITY IN A UNITED STATES CARRIER.
While we are distracted by other issues affecting our QOL, work rules, compensation, medical benefits, etc... A more insidious ememy is approaching to completley destroy our profession. Take this example; A group of regional airline CEOs testify before Congress that they can no longer find enough "Americans willing to perform the duties of pilots" and seek a change or relief from the rules that do not permit a foreign interest to own the equity stake in a US airline.
I would cast a VERY wary eye on events taking place in China, and what the future could hold for us. In less time than I care to speculate, we could see true Cabotage in the United States with Chinese airliners with Chinese pilots flying LGA-BGM for example. And, worse yet at pay rates that represent a fraction of what we are currently paid.
We shall see how this plays out in the very near future. Unless, we are able to kick them back to the stone age in WWIII, which is also inevitable with China.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

White House Bent on destroying Air Line Pilots via Foreign Control

Foreign Control of U.S. Airlines

UPDATE, December 1 –Despite Congress’s overwhelming bi-partisan opposition, the Bush Administration is reportedly preparing an announcement that it will finalize the rule to allow foreign control of U.S. airlines. The decision of House and Senate Republican leaders to give up on passing the FY-2007 Transportation Appropriations bill --- which includes the prohibition on DOT from issuing a final rule --- has provided the administration a small window of opportunity to push through the controversial NPRM before the Dec. 15 E.U.-U.S. open skies ratification vote. A letter from leading congressional opponents --- Reps. Oberstar (D-MN), LoBiondo (R-NJ), Costello (D-IL), and Poe (R-TX) --- has warned the White House to terminate its plans to issue the rule and to have it formally withdrawn. Click here to read the letter.
​

https://crewroom.alpa.org/DesktopMod...56& Tabid=251
__________________
.

 

[Yodafly]

Ya Colgan is a place where most people want to build time and leave for a major. Some stay longer then others for quality of life reasons, family reasons or just timing when to be junior again.

How many people are coming to Pinnacle that intend on staying for their whole airline career. Not any of the smart ones. The only difference is how quickly they intend to move through to the majors.

As far as merging the two companies I think PCL Alpa would be better served using their time and resources getting a contract for their own pilot group that they seam be failing miserably at and stop worrying about Colgan's pilots and our problems.

 

[mac36]

Two words.............

Piedmont/Empire

 

[sinkrate]

I am stunned by the lack of understanding of PCL Corps goals. You guys have it completely backwards. They will never merge Colgan into PCL.

Management's goal is to make every PCL pilot start over as a new hire at Colgan. No staple with longevity, start over as a new hire. It is a game they have been playing with outstation employees and Mesaba for ten years. Lincoln Nebraska was PCL, then Mesaba, then PCL again and is now going back to Mesaba. Every time this happens all the ramp and gate agents get to start over as newhires - with no credit for prior years of service.

The main reason they bought Colgan is it is non union and it was cheaper than starting a new, non union, airline from the ground up. They wanted a non union certificate. They had been pursuing a second certificate for a number of years with the intention of placing all new AC types there. The only AC PCL will ever operate are CRJ's. All new types will go to Colgan. When the CRJ fleet is retired PCL pilots will be told 'you are welcome to apply for a new hire position at Colgan'. NWA just prepayed PCL half its profit for the 10 year service agreement. There is now a lot less incentive for management to keep PCL in business. If the pilots strike management will simply put PCL in bankruptcy and walk away from it.

In short - Colgan is a gun aimed directly at the heads of every PCL pilots family, held by Corp while management says 'empty out your wallet and give up your job'. The only chance PCL has to survive is to take the gun away from management.

 

[Smarta$$]

I am stunned by the lack of understanding of PCL Corps goals. You guys have it completely backwards. They will never merge Colgan into PCL.

Management's goal is to make every PCL pilot start over as a new hire at Colgan. No staple with longevity, start over as a new hire. It is a game they have been playing with outstation employees and Mesaba for ten years. Lincoln Nebraska was PCL, then Mesaba, then PCL again and is now going back to Mesaba. Every time this happens all the ramp and gate agents get to start over as newhires - with no credit for prior years of service.

The main reason they bought Colgan is it is non union and it was cheaper than starting a new, non union, airline from the ground up. They wanted a non union certificate. They had been pursuing a second certificate for a number of years with the intention of placing all new AC types there. The only AC PCL will ever operate are CRJ's. All new types will go to Colgan. When the CRJ fleet is retired PCL pilots will be told 'you are welcome to apply for a new hire position at Colgan'. NWA just prepayed PCL half its profit for the 10 year service agreement. There is now a lot less incentive for management to keep PCL in business. If the pilots strike management will simply put PCL in bankruptcy and walk away from it.

In short - Colgan is a gun aimed directly at the heads of every PCL pilots family, held by Corp while management says 'empty out your wallet and give up your job'. The only chance PCL has to survive is to take the gun away from management.

This message will fall on deaf colgan ears. It will also be dismissed by many pinnacle pilots that don't know that they are an ostrich.

 

[PinnacleDude]

This message will fall on deaf colgan ears. It will also be dismissed by many pinnacle pilots that don't know that they are an ostrich.

Actually, the vast majority of Pinnacle Pilots get it. Certainly more than 50%.

Hey Yodafly - the 50% of Colgan guys made it tougher for the Pinnacle folks. The very fact that we are fighting with management over something that they can easily afford should tell you something about your unprotected predicament. Don't worry, though, you'll still enjoy our raises and improved work rules that we are fighting for one way or another down the road. We will not sell out despite management's threats to use Colgan against us.

Colgan Organizing Committee - Thanks for all of your work to improve the industry.