Senior NWA pilots still trying to sabotage the TDC.

[nwaredtail]

Gentlemen,



Can you explain the reason for closing any portion of the upcoming MEC meeting from the "flying line pilots" of the airline? You have announced you are going to discuss the DC plan and portions may be closed to the line pilot. Since you have already shared and discussed the complete proposed plan with the company, who are you keeping the information from? Your own pilot group? can you explain the logic and justification of keeping the company informed, but locking out the people who elected you?



Thank you,


XXXXXXX

This from a senior widebody redbook captain who is VERY familiar with MEC protocal. The email list included the normal Tanks, Hamel, etc.

 

[nwaredtail]

I wonder why he cares? He will not be a beneficiary of the TDC, but he knows that. Do you think maybe he has some others motives, like screwing it up for the rest of the NWA junior pilots.

Worse than a scab if you ask me, along with his buddies.

 

[filejw]

There a just a handful of them but that's all it takes with a few bucks and a lawyer.I was asked but declined.

 

[nwaredtail]

Thanks for that

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Don't know the other ********************bags, but have flown with MT and not only is he an incompetent pilot(not due to skill as much as his insistance in NOT flying sopa/smac as his way is smarter than the training dept.) actually his flying is not so good either. Ask some ANC pilots about his 3 go arounds due to the inability to do a visual approach to 32, trying to taxi with the reversers deployed in idle thrust to save brakes, disregareding the reversers stowed by 60kts limitation due to potential FOD. He is just an odd duck who takes the opposite side in any conversation even when you take his side just to argue/debate. One more thing, he thinks targeting is unfair now because he is not included, but thinks targeting is the ONLY fair way if the DB is terminated as he has only 6 years to make up his retirement. Just plain greedy.

Thanks for that

 

[Occam's Razor]

There are some valid reasons to close a meeting, even when the topic is something universal, such as the TDC.

I'm not sure this is one of them. Back in '93, OC insisted the meetings he ran that discussed the REP Annuity issue were always open. He said it kept the number of rumors and baseless accusations to a manageable minimum. Ultimately, he commissioned an independent study of the Annuity issue and the whole brouhaha faded away with almost zero whining (A difficult task where pilots and money are involved!).

The opposition to the TDC is lame. Luckily it's just a few knotheads touting a clearly self-serving twist of logic.

 

[NuGuy]

There are some valid reasons to close a meeting, even when the topic is something universal, such as the TDC.

I'm not sure this is one of them. Back in '93, OC insisted the meetings he ran that discussed the REP Annuity issue were always open. He said it kept the number of rumors and baseless accusations to a manageable minimum. Ultimately, he commissioned an independent study of the Annuity issue and the whole brouhaha faded away with almost zero whining (A difficult task where pilots and money are involved!).

The opposition to the TDC is lame. Luckily it's just a few knotheads touting a clearly self-serving twist of logic.

Heyas Occam,

I agree. Considering the rancor among the pilot group over this issue, and it's potential far reaching effects, this whole thing needs to be a "palms up" affair.

I don't think we're going to get that though, and the rumors, speculation and finger pointing will exceed the "managable minimum amount".

Nu

 

[filejw]

Hope you guys realize that this not really a jr /sr thing. Most of the money will go to people just above the middle.The ones they want to make whole. IE I will get zero, a guy with like 13 yrs will get 2% and someone with 19 yrs will get 8%.Or something similar.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

So, are you saying as a 95 hire (11 1/2 years ) I will be getting around 2% or less? I figured I would get at least the 5% maybe as much as 10.

 

[filejw]

Well mine is an immature calculation but to make people whole ( I think they said 50% FAE ). I'm pretty sure the folks who are closer to retirement would get lots more than the folks that have in theory more time left to work and then there would have to be future calculations.One issue maybe there are not that many senior guys to give up the 5% to help that much. But seeing the meetings are closed I guess its all speculation.

 

[NuGuy]

Well mine is an immature calculation but to make people whole ( I think they said 50% FAE ). I'm pretty sure the folks who are closer to retirement would get lots more than the folks that have in theory more time left to work and then there would have to be future calculations.One issue maybe there are not that many senior guys to give up the 5% to help that much. But seeing the meetings are closed I guess its all speculation.

Heyas File,

You've got ahold of some bad math.

The DB plan was saved, albiet frozen. Those who have significant benefits comming to them from that plan, even if a few years into the future, don't need TDC benefits to meet the "target" threshold of %50 FAE.

OTOH, those who have minimum DB benefits, and relatively short periods of time to earn DC benefits will probably be at the top of the targeting tier, followed by those who have some time to let their DC funds work for them.

The way I see it breaking down:

Senior guys = 0 or close (because they already meet or exceed the %50 FAE from the DB)

Mid to low seniority / Older (45-50 ish) = %13 -18

Mid to low seniority / Younger (<40 ish) = % 10-13

If you are a top dog, and are already enjoying a nearly %60 FAE, why do you need anything additional, especially considering that the old DB plan maxed out at %60 and 25/25 anyway?

Nu

 

[nwaredtail]

If you are a top dog, and are already enjoying a nearly %60 FAE, why do you need anything additional, especially considering that the old DB plan maxed out at %60 and 25/25 anyway?

Because you are a greedy frickin Scab-like POS, other than that, it's all good.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Nu has is right.

I'm at 19-years...mid-list, and I will get about 2%.

The junior guys with small frozen DB's will get the larger percentages...as they should.

 

[filejw]

Well to be honest that's how it was explained to me on one very long leg.It seemed reasonable to at the time. BTW as I hear it guys with 19 yrs aren't close to 60%.The people holding up the works are from #'s 300 thru 1300 and a very small group at that.

 

[123]

Nu,

That is the way that I understand it to work also and the TDC was one of the main reasons that I accepted my initial recall this spring. I wanted to make sure that I was included in the TDC. Hopefully all this talk about selfish "brothers" is just a little smoke.

BTW, have you heard anything as to how the new hires are going to be treated with regard to retirement.

 

[NuGuy]

BTW, have you heard anything as to how the new hires are going to be treated with regard to retirement.

Heyas 123,

No, I haven't heard anything, but for this outfit, that's par.

While there have been some very limited exceptions, new hires at NWA are either ignored or treated with disdain.

If guys are lucky, they'll just be ignored.

Nu

 

[Occam's Razor]

Well to be honest that's how it was explained to me on one very long leg.It seemed reasonable to at the time. BTW as I hear it guys with 19 yrs aren't close to 60%.The people holding up the works are from #'s 300 thru 1300 and a very small group at that.

1. Call one of the R&I bubbas. They'll give you more accurate gouge on the actual numbers.

2. The target is 50%...not 60%. (At 19-years, I'm at exactly 50% FAE for my current income...so I'll only require a very small % to hit the 50% target)

3. The people "holding up the works" are your MEC reps. They are doing it because they know that any issue like this will result in beaucoup phone calls and emails from those who feel disenfranchised. I think that's making them a little fidgety when it comes to pulling the trigger.

 

[Occam's Razor]

While there have been some very limited exceptions, new hires at NWA are either ignored or treated with disdain.

Disagree. There has been a LOT of attention paid to the Plan being set-up for new hires! Unfortunately, your first point (no communication from the MEC) is valid. Also, they can't announce the Plan until the TDC is in-place.

Which kinda begs the question: Why the #%$& didn't they just initiate the TDC in '06 when the Pension Reform Act passed? I think that was a monumental screw up!

 

[filejw]

Razor...Re: # 3.....Boy is that right, I've been watching this act for almost 30 yrs. Same clowns different circus.....LOL..Trouble is I never have found a better alternative than ALPA.

 

[NuGuy]

Which kinda begs the question: Why the #%$& didn't they just initiate the TDC in '06 when the Pension Reform Act passed? I think that was a monumental screw up!

Heyas Occam,

I dunno. I respectfully disagree with you about the newbies...and not just about the retirement issue. We can chat about it over a beer sometime, but respect is earned from the ground up.

With regards to the TDC...there are those who would very much like to see the whole effort collapse, and they are making their voice heard in back channels.

I agree with your other points. The TDC should have been rolled out of the gate from the get go, and unless it's implemented as advertised, there are going to be a lot of unhappy campers.

Nu

 

[filejw]

Nuguy is right, should have just started as the DB plan was being frozen. The delay just gives the decenter time to ammo up. To be honest after listening to their argument for an hr over a beer at NRT it all could make sense if wasn't so selfish...but that is my opinion...

 

[nwaredtail]

who is they?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Geez, brothers! There is always dissent! Even the 10% pay raise in 2003 (the mother of all no-brainers) had 13% of us voting against it.

The issue is whether it is right or wrong to target the DC. Given the frozen DB benefit for the senior guys, the only answer is "right". Had the MEC implemented it immediately after the Pension Reform Act was signed, the subsequent "It's all about me!" rationalization process would have been derailed by the larger-than-expected Claim Sale payout(s).

But the MEC quibbled.

Who dares wins.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas Occam,

I understand that now the big hang up is that the company wants the union to pick up the tab to "insure" the TDC against lawsuits. I mean WTF,O?

Nu

 

[Occam's Razor]

Heyas Occam,

I understand that now the big hang up is that the company wants the union to pick up the tab to "insure" the TDC against lawsuits. I mean WTF,O?

Nu

NWA management is the "administrator" of the Plan. They have the fundamental liability. Since ALPA is modifying the Plan, management wants ALPA to assume liability for the methodology of distribution where if differs from the Plan document.

I don't have a problem with that. You can't stop morons from suing even when they are doing it out of greed, not fairness (see also "RJDC"). I don't see a valid reason to fear stupid lawsuits.

Do you remember how I handled it when the scab sued ALPA and me in '96? I posted his lawsuit stuff on the Council 1 bulletin board. The lawsuit evaporated.

Launch the TDC, then post the names of the dorks that sue.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Occam,

What do you think of Article VIII charges against the pilots involved. Specifically Paragraph A. numbers 9&10 on page 60 of the constituition and bylaws?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam,

What do you think of Article VIII charges against the pilots involved. Specifically Paragraph A. numbers 9&10 on page 60 of the constituition and bylaws?

I don't think that'd be a good idea. I think it'd be a better idea to have the MEC take a unanimous position on the issue as the "deciders" for the pilot group...and force the nincompoops to file a lawsuit.

The ensuing feces storm of outrage by the rest of the us (ie: "Our dues money is being used to defend a unanimous decision by our MEC?!") would lead to a rash of early retirements.

Win-Win!

I think Article VIII would make the greedy dorks tragically "heroic" to a few (see also "RJDC") misguided souls who cling to martyrs...even when the martyrs are MORONS (ibid).

 

[nwaredtail]

Cobra, I just read it and I think you would at least get some attention. I think it would be a huge wake up call for them.

Talk to your rep and find out.

 

[filejw]

Unfortunately all about me type's won't care if the names are posted.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Unfortunately all about me type's won't care if the names are posted.

You may be right...but my personal experience suggests otherwise.