Seeking wisdom about duty time...

[dsee8driver]

Scenario...

Duty starts at 0040Z...Flight Scheduled at 0140Z Departure from ABC.
Return to ABC at 1400Z, Duty time ends 30 Mins after Block IN at 1430.
Total duty so far 13hrs 50 mins.

Company DIRECTS us to REPOSITION on Commercial airlines to XYZ airport with a flight departing ABC at 1520Z arriving XYZ at 1945Z.

Assuming company DIRECTED REPOSITIONING is considered duty Total duty day 19 hrs 05 mins. Is this legal?

CP says DEADHEAD after trip not considered duty. My OPINION and that is why I'm seeking others, is as follows.
I feel if after we land we don't go into required crewrest, but instead company DIRECTS us to reposition we are still on duty. What do you guys and gals think?

 

[FSB99]

it's my understanding that DH time is in fact Duty time.

 

[TransMach]

Mate,

It's gonna be tough to get a real answer here. First, anyone answering would need to know what rule, 135, 121 Supplemental, Domestic or Flag, as well as what your GOM/FOM or FCOM says on the matter.

The point I'm trying to get to is, don't buy anything someone here tells you on that question, cuz they simply won't have the information necessary to speak with any certainty.

TransMach

 

[Nolife]

Deadhead

I've come up against this sort of thing many times and IMO the company might not count deadheading as duty but it doesn't count as rest. Any travel done for company business not local in nature won't count as rest. So after the deahead you would need your proper rest. If you worked on duty prior to DH then DH'ed and they wanted more duty I'd turn it down as you'll exceed either duty times or rest limits. Solution: Hire more pilots!

 

[de Pez]

There are a number of variables here. Is this a Part 135 operation, Part 121, or one of those "modified Part 91 deals?" Do you have a contract? If so, look it up to determine the exact definition of duty...That said, I absolutely believe that in your scenario, the required D/H counts as duty..In fact, accepting an additional assignment from The Company, without being released to a rest period at the FAA mandated 16 hour point duty would with few exceptions, be illegal ..

 

[avbug]

Both you, and the company, are confusing several issues with one another. The flight may be conducted under Part 91, as opposed to Part 125 or 121 in this case. If the company assigns the flight it's duty. You may not exceed the duty. You may fly home, but the company cannot require it. You must elect to do so on your own. I that case, it's not duty; you're not under a duty to work if you elect to fly home on your own, but it's not rest time, either. Your rest doesn't begin until you terminate that flight and arrive at your home station or at the hotel for a layover.


If the company assigns you to conduct the flight, regardless of the purpose of the flight, it's duty. If you elect to make the flight, it's not duty. There's a subtle difference here, said with a wink and a nod. Again, the company can't assign it, but you can decide to do it. What's the difference? There isn't any, except in the way you explain it. You elect to make the flight, it's a tail end ferry under Part 91, and isn't duty (you're just returning home on your own), but it isn't rest.

 

[chperplt]

The DH flight he is speaking of is a commercial flight, not one he will be operating I think.

If you're operating under 121, the DH flight cannot take you past your 8 hour look back rest, or a 16 hour duty day. Going beyond 16 hours of duty under normal 121 ops is a violation and a NASA form would be in order.

 

[avbug]

I believe he was speaking of a tail-end ferry, repositioning an airplane. However, it doesn't matter. If done on his own volition, it's not duty, nor does it impinge on a 16 hour limitation, because it isn't duty.

If it's a ride home, not local in nature, then it's not duty, but not rest, either. Rest begins on arrival at home, or at the layover point.

 

[de Pez]

I agree with Avbug. If you choose to D/H to get back home, that's one thing, but requiring you to do so is the issue.

Interestingly, my Company is cracking down on your scenario in reverse. They are ruling that if someone chooses to D/H into work on a Company aircraft (let's say it's a 4 hour commute from D/H check-in until the start of the trip), to then fly a scheduled 14 hour day, that's illegal...Hard to prove if you're not Deadheading on a Company aircraft, however if you CHECKED IN to D/H to work, then fly a trip (with no rest) in which your total duty time will exceed 16 hours, you're illegal. They have removed individuals from trips for just this scenario, saying that they were not fit for duty. In this scenario, apparently they are interpreting D/H time as duty.

 

[chperplt]

If done on his own volition, it's not duty, nor does it impinge on a 16 hour limitation, because it isn't duty.

If it's a ride home, not local in nature, then it's not duty, but not rest, either. Rest begins on arrival at home, or at the layover point

I don't think so....

Company DIRECTS us to REPOSITION on Commercial airlines

That statement doesn't sound like a tail end ferry.

I'll say it once again since there is some confusion.. IF the DH was on a commercial airline OR was a tail end ferry, you are NOT authorized to violate your 8 hour look back rest under FAR 121 regulations. A tail end ferry allows you to exceed 8 hours of scheduled flight time between rest periods ONLY.

 

[Blue Dude]

Lookback rest doesn't apply to DH legs or part 91 ferry flights, because you're not a "flight crewmember" under part 121 in those cases. So you could legally work a very full day (8 hrs flt and 16 hrs on duty) under 121 and then DH on a company directed flight of any length. Or operate a part 91 leg, or legs, of any length. It's FAR legal, but other restrictions probably apply. For instance, if the forthcoming rest period is "compensatory" rest, then the preceding operations (DH, part 91) are NOT legal if they would encroach upon the mandatory start of rest, since you're not free from all duty when you perform them. You MAY DH on your own if it's not company-directed, but keep in mind that in this case you're DH'ing during your rest period.

Aside from contractual or other restrictions (such as the compensatory rest example above), the company can assign you to do just about anything after your trip, as long as it doesn't involve revenue flying as a crewmember, without regard to FAR rest or duty requirements. But any duty performed before your part 121 flying generally is considered under the rest and duty requirements.

 

[transpac]

Blue Dude has it exactly right. Crew rest rules provide an opportunity for rest before revenue flights, not after. The FAA doesn't care whether a dead heading passenger is tired or not. Of course if the dead heading passenger functions as a crewmember during some subsequent revenue flight, he/she must meet the crew rest look back requirements at that time.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Nevermind...

 

[chperplt]

Aside from contractual or other restrictions (such as the compensatory rest example above), the company can assign you to do just about anything after your trip, as long as it doesn't involve revenue flying as a crewmember, without regard to FAR rest or duty requirements. But any duty performed before your part 121 flying generally is considered under the rest and duty requirements.

Bluedude

You are incorrect sir.

Any DH that takes you beyond your 8 hour lookback rest is in violation of the FARs. If you will not be released by 16 hours and 0 minutes, you will break a reg. IF you start your day under 121, you will finish your day under those same 121 rules, regardless if operating a flight under 91 or not. The only thing a 91 leg allows us to do is a tail end ferry that exceeds the 8 hours of scheduled flight time between rest periods. It does not allow exception to look back rest.

We can go back and forth all day long here. I'll still be right and you won't.

In all seriousness... Lookback rest is a must at all times. For the sake of not busting a reg, check out the crew rest and legality page on the ALPA web site.

By the way... Deadheading crewmembers are just that... crewmembers and are in reality, a part of the crew.

 

[Blue Dude]

IF you start your day under 121, you will finish your day under those same 121 rules, regardless if operating a flight under 91 or not.

You can make such an interpretation, but it's not supported by what the reg actually says. Source?

There's no reg that says you have to look back from the end of a DH leg and find any amount of rest. You're not a required crewmember. You're not on rest, but you're not on flight duty either. And by the way, you won't find "duty time" defined anywhere. It's only implied by required rest.

The ALPA reference is silent on this specific issue. It doesn't support your interpretation either. It also doesn't specifically support mine except for the fact that your assertion that a day is all 121 if it starts 121 doesn't appear anywhere. If it's not prohibited, it's allowed. There's nothing that prohibits following up a part 121 with a leg operated entirely under part 91. And a DH leg isn't "operated" under any reg at all.

 

[chperplt]

My source on the interpretation is the FAA. While doing my Masters Thesis I had to dissect 121 crew rest issues and had numerous correspondence with the FAA chief council on many matters, including this one.

I've also seen people get bitten in the ass over the issue. One person actually got a warning letter in his FAA file over this issue. He was at 15 + hours of duty and accepted a positive space DH to get back to base. The scheduler said she didn't know it wasn't allowed and neither did the pilot. He ended up with a 17 1/2 hour duty day. The company found out and self disclosed the violation to the FAA and because of the NASA form he was encouraged to fill out, didn't get the 30 days off the FAA wanted to give him.

If you start your day with a DH, do you think that counts toward your duty day?

 

[Blue Dude]

My source on the interpretation is the FAA. While doing my Masters Thesis I had to dissect 121 crew rest issues and had numerous correspondence with the FAA chief council on many matters, including this one.

I've also seen people get bitten in the ass over the issue. One person actually got a warning letter in his FAA file over this issue. He was at 15 + hours of duty and accepted a positive space DH to get back to base. The scheduler said she didn't know it wasn't allowed and neither did the pilot. He ended up with a 17 1/2 hour duty day. The company found out and self disclosed the violation to the FAA and because of the NASA form he was encouraged to fill out, didn't get the 30 days off the FAA wanted to give him.

You'd like to think that it would actually appear in the reg, or in an interpretation that was actually made known to the pilots involved (i.e. us). How could you be held responsible for operating an aircraft in violation of part 121 rest requirements when it is quite clear that you're not operating an aircraft when you're deadheading? This is an absurdity. Are you sure there weren't other circumstances involved, e.g. the DH leg cutting into a required compensatory rest period or not taken into account for the next day's flying? I have a hard time believing that this is all there is to the story.

If you start your day with a DH, do you think that counts toward your duty day?

"Duty day" is really an irrelevent term. It is not defined. It is merely a convenient colloquialism that usually means "not resting". If you start your day with a DH at the company's direction, you are not resting and any subsequent legs that require looking back to find rest must take this period into account. But we were talking about tail-end DH legs, not this scenario. And where is there a lookback provision for a DH leg? Or a part 91 leg for that matter?