Scope works - ACA furloughs more pilots

[tarp]

Well there you go.

Management letter to pilots at ACA - due to loss of Delta flying, next round of furloughs early as November or as late as January. House estimate - about 300-350 more furloughs.

Not enough Independence Flying to support all these pilots until Airbus program is in full swing.

Note: ACA was forced out of the DCI program since the Airbus added to the fleet violated Delta scope language even though ACA had no intentions of operating anything other than the 32 seat Dornier Jet (FRJ) on DCI flying.

What's that thing about the rule of unintended consequences?

Life goes on.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

But, the Bus will be in full swing soon enough and hopefully recalls. Good luck you guys, hang in there.

 

[michael707767]

Note: ACA was forced out of the DCI program since the Airbus added to the fleet violated Delta scope language even though ACA had no intentions of operating anything other than the 32 seat Dornier Jet (FRJ) on DCI flying.

What's that thing about the rule of unintended consequences?

Though I disagree with many complaints about scope, I understand them. This is one area of scope I have to say I support 100%. Bottom line, we don't want our company providing any support or money to subsidize aircraft which will be used against us. So, if ACA was going to make even one dollar from DCI flying, thats one dollar which could have been put toward operating a competing aircraft. Even without our scope, the code share with ACA would not have lasted long. Management agrees with what I said. They would have wanted more time to get a replacement, but would have dropped ACA anyway.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Michael :

So tell us why ALPA has no problem with Skyway ( Midwest Express - Express ) and American Eagle performing DCI flying?

Michael, you have been lied to. ALPA's scope is not about your job protection - it is about maintaining the balance of power within ALPA's representation structure. This is not about your job, it is about Duane Woerth's.

You can bet that the day the "regionals" get one more vote than the mainline guys, Duane Woerth is going to have to go fly airplanes again.

~~~^~~~

 

[michael707767]

Michael :

So tell us why ALPA has no problem with Skyway ( Midwest Express - Express ) and American Eagle performing DCI flying?

Michael, you have been lied to. ALPA's scope is not about your job protection - it is about maintaining the balance of power within ALPA's representation structure. This is not about your job, it is about Duane Woerth's.

You can bet that the day the "regionals" get one more vote than the mainline guys, Duane Woerth is going to have to go fly airplanes again.

~~~^~~~

First of all, Skyway does not do any flying for DCI. If and when they do, we will talk. Second, the difference with Eagle is that Eagle does not operate aircraft larger than 70 seats. They are owned by someone who does, but that does not violate the language of our contract.

You are the one who has been lied to, and continues to spread lies. Scope is about job protection. There is no such thing as good scope and bad scope. Scope by its nature will always exclude someone. There is no way to write scope that does not exclude someone.

Frankly, I hope Duane Worthe does loose his job. I am tired of the RJDC crap. You don't like the way ALPA represents you leave. But you won't, so I hope we do.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well there you go.

House estimate - about 300-350 more furloughs.

Source this.

 

[Always deferred]

Source this.

Well the flyer in the CVG crewroom says 300. Bill Brown said 0-200. MEC has said nothing. Who knows. As someone sitting right on the fence, it is unnerving, however I have to accept that everything happens for a greater reason and that should I get furloughed it is not the end of the world, but a chance for my company to prosper into a place that will be great to work at and a chance for me to explore and maybe learn something new.

Good luck to all of us.

 

[beech1900kid]

Frankly, I hope Duane Worthe does loose his job. I am tired of the RJDC crap. You don't like the way ALPA represents you leave. But you won't, so I hope we do.

Yeah that makes sense, leave your job because you don't like ALPA's representation. Let me remind you of something....ALPA is there to serve US, not the other way around. If Duane Worthless does an inferior job with any airline, be it scope or anything else, THEY are the ones who need to do corrective action. No action on behalf of ANY pilot should be necessary to correct an ALPA fcuk up.

 

[generaltso]

How far back does 300 go?

 

[FDJ2]

Quit your whining, you wanted to be "independent", now do it. Geez.

 

[RJPilott]

Aug 2001... ouch. Lets hope for all our sake Delta and ACA can come to an agreement. It cant be good for anyone to park airplanes.

 

[FLB717]

When does the Airbus show up? And at what rate of delivery?

 

[hopeful]

If these Indy jokers don't get people to board their aircraft in a hurry, the financing will probably fall through and they will never see an Airbus. I feel for you guys. You are lead by a bunch of followers. Your management doesn't have the savvy to make this work unfortunately.

On the bright side, maybe Virgin USA will want to buy a commuter to fly around their scraps!

 

[Always deferred]

If these Indy jokers don't get people to board their aircraft in a hurry, the financing will probably fall through and they will never see an Airbus. I feel for you guys. You are lead by a bunch of followers. Your management doesn't have the savvy to make this work unfortunately.

On the bright side, maybe Virgin USA will want to buy a commuter to fly around their scraps!

Hey thanks for the support! I know when you are envious of something, the best way to deal with it is to try and rain on everyone else's party. But hey I was at a neighborhood picnic tonight, and just randomly the name Independence Air was brought up and 3 strangers I didn't even know (nor did they know I am employed by them) starting telling stories of how great their experiences were and how they've already booked future flights. Also mentioned was how poor one of their experiences on TED was.
Contrary to what you may think or hear, people ARE boarding our planes and loving it. Yes there are areas that need improvement but all in all things are at least going as expected.

 

[Billy Madison]

Hmmm...
"We find it's always better to fire people on a Friday. Studies have statistically shown that there's less chance of an incident if you do it at the end of the week."
-Office Space

Hey they did it to me on a Friday too. It sucks. Good Luck.

 

[hopeful]

Yes there are areas that need improvement but all in all things are at least going as expected.

Chingow! (I'm not a spanish major so the speeling needs some improvement)

21% load factors are what you girls expected. Better start sending out resumes. Or start hoping for a major change in managerial thinking. ($10 bucks says the 320's are on hold for now)

 

[Always deferred]

sorry man but I am not going to waste my time arguing with you. You have no source for 21% LF. You must be either the infamous etoper or Johnny Ornstein. I'm sorry your life is so miserable. Goodluck!

 

[ShadowFlight]

Skyway Correction

First of all, Skyway does not do any flying for DCI. If and when they do, we will talk. Second, the difference with Eagle is that Eagle does not operate aircraft larger than 70 seats. They are owned by someone who does, but that does not violate the language of our contract.

Skyway is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Midwest Airlines and we operate under a different certificate. If Skyway does fly the DL 328's, it wouldn't be any different than Eagle flying DCI. At this point, Skyway isn't focused on anything more than the 328 market. Any future flying probably wouldn't exceed the 70 seat market.

Also, Midwest dropped the "Express" from their name last year and Skyway is now called Midwest Connect (or technically, Skyway dba Midwest Connect).

Peace

SF

 

[80drvr]

Though I disagree with many complaints about scope, I understand them. This is one area of scope I have to say I support 100%. Bottom line, we don't want our company providing any support or money to subsidize aircraft which will be used against us. So, if ACA was going to make even one dollar from DCI flying, thats one dollar which could have been put toward operating a competing aircraft. Even without our scope, the code share with ACA would not have lasted long. Management agrees with what I said. They would have wanted more time to get a replacement, but would have dropped ACA anyway.

AA is running into a situation similar to DAL/ACA with Republic (Chatauqua). They will be operating E-170s for UAL. This is prohibited by the AA/APA scope clause. Basically the choice will be to terminate them as an American Connection carrier or grant another scope exception.

My input to the APA is to hold the line on scope. Subsidizing the competition and further degradation of 70-110 seat compensation is lunacy. E-170/190 must be flown at mainline--Period. Competetive rates are subject of several other threads.

 

[surplus1]

My input to the APA is to hold the line on scope. Subsidizing the competition and further degradation of 70-110 seat compensation is lunacy. E-170/190 must be flown at mainline--Period. Competetive rates are subject of several other threads.

While I might agree with not subsidizing the competition, I have to ask you. Are you prepared to fly the E-170 for USAirways rates of $58/hr or would you rather fly the E-190 for JetBlue rates? Apart from the rates, rember too ... no pension and no work rules ... you fly to FAR's.

My friend the "degradation" of 70-110 seat compensation is not coming from the "regionals", it's coming from the so-called majors.

Second question. While AA scope may prohibit CHQ from flying the E-170 for UAL, if you try to stop them and they decide to take you to court (the company not the pilots) what do you think will happen to your "scope"? Taking any bets?

 

[surplus1]

Skyway is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Midwest Airlines and we operate under a different certificate.
SF

Not to worry SF, what Mike seems to be telling you is that all you need is a different name and a different operating certificate and then you can drive a truck through his scope clause. Sounds like you already have both.

Had ACA wanted to (assuming Mike is right) all they had to do was retain the separate certifice they once had for the DOJets, and voila, no problem.

 

[80drvr]

While I might agree with not subsidizing the competition, I have to ask you. Are you prepared to fly the E-170 for USAirways rates of $58/hr or would you rather fly the E-190 for JetBlue rates? Apart from the rates, rember too ... no pension and no work rules ... you fly to FAR's.

My friend the "degradation" of 70-110 seat compensation is not coming from the "regionals", it's coming from the so-called majors.

Second question. While AA scope may prohibit CHQ from flying the E-170 for UAL, if you try to stop them and they decide to take you to court (the company not the pilots) what do you think will happen to your "scope"? Taking any bets?

If we don't hold the line on scope, the wage argument is a moot point. I'm not pointing fingers, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me that the wages on new 70-110 seat equipment are not degraded. We'll just have to wait and see what is deemed competitive for this category of domestic flying. But, it is a lot easier to fix pay scales moving forward if you own the flying.

On your second point, what law would the AA/APA CBA be in violation of? I have placed a huge bet...it's my career.

 

[Carl_Everett]

Yes there are areas that need improvement but all in all things are at least going as expected.

Chingow! (I'm not a spanish major so the speeling needs some improvement)

21% load factors are what you girls expected. Better start sending out resumes. Or start hoping for a major change in managerial thinking. ($10 bucks says the 320's are on hold for now)

I'll take that bet! Just make it for 319's. Independence is not getting 320's.

http://forums.aca-lounge.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=531

 

[AirBoard]

Yes there are areas that need improvement but all in all things are at least going as expected.

Chingow! (I'm not a spanish major so the speeling needs some improvement)

21% load factors are what you girls expected. Better start sending out resumes. Or start hoping for a major change in managerial thinking. ($10 bucks says the 320's are on hold for now)

Actually the 380's are on hold for now dips!%t.... But anyway, good idea about the resume, I'll throw it on over to your airline - your hiring right? Oh wait a minute then I'd have to work with your miserable ass.....forget it then.

 

[surplus1]

error

 

[surplus1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 80drvr
If we don't hold the line on scope, the wage argument is a moot point. I'm not pointing fingers, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me that the wages on new 70-110 seat equipment are not degraded. We'll just have to wait and see what is deemed competitive for this category of domestic flying. But, it is a lot easier to fix pay scales moving forward if you own the flying.</B></B>



I sure wasn't trying to convince you that the wages on that size equipment are not degraded. If fact degraded is a benign word, it's more like devastated. I'm just fussing about who did it. Your scope statement isn't wrong, but trying to force CHQ to give up that flying in the E-170 is not like to result in your getting it. It will just go to someone else. The effect of that makes the scope argument as moot as the wage argument.



Quote:
On your second point, what law would the AA/APA CBA be in violation of? I have placed a huge bet...it's my career.


Unless Chautauqua or Republic (whichever one of them flys that type for UAL) has agreed, in their deal with AMR, to comply with the AA CBA I would call attempts to stop their agreement with a third party (UAL) "restraint of trade". Does federal law allow that? I don't think so.

The problem is merely that no one has chosen to challenge that type of scope in court. At least not yet. Does Republic Holdings or Republic Airlines have a code share agreement with AA? If they don't, how does what they fly for UAL manage to violate your scope? How does that affect your career at AA?

I understand your intent clearly, but many of you (major unions) tend to "reach" beyond the bounds of reason. Perhaps they'll get scared if you threaten and roll over, but one of these days somebody will call your bluff.

 

[FDJ2]

While AA scope may prohibit CHQ from flying the E-170 for UAL, if you try to stop them and they decide to take you to court (the company not the pilots) what do you think will happen to your "scope"? Taking any bets?

Does AA scope "prevent" CHQ from flying the E-170, or does it prevent AA, due to a mutaully agreed upon contract, from outsourcing its code to a carrier that flies the E-170. Big difference.