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"Scholarships" (CWI earlier post)

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Cyclone

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2003
Posts
128
SWA "Scholarships" (CWI earlier post)

First of all here in America we all have a right to say what we think. Expressing an opinion isn’t a bad thing. Fortunately, unpopular opinions were pretty popular with our founding fathers.

Unfortunately, in this age of political correctness, if you disagree with something like affirmative action some people will immediately “label” you as a bigot, a racist, or worse.

Incidentally, when you’re “labeled” by the p.c. crowd, it’s still a stereotype. This way of thinking is fine though because as one society’s liberators for social change it’s accepted. The academics and the media teach us it is okay. Use the same exact mental approach presenting a conservative argument and you should get called names. As long as you agree with the left you can pigeonhole all day long.

There are lots of us looking for work. Some of us get hired. Some of us don’t. Some of us are lucky. Some of us crap out. Some of us have lots of friends and former colleagues at a particular airline and that helps. Some of us don’t know too many pilots at the majors. Some of us are nice and some of us are mean (sometimes these qualities show up in the interview and sometimes they don’t).

What we all want, or at least what all of us should want is for the hiring process to be fair. It’s not perfect. It never will be perfect. We should still want it to be as fair as possible. So the question is does affirmative action make it better or does it make it worse?

Some people say it makes it better because it gives minority and female pilots the chance that they so rightfully deserve and otherwise would not have. That’s their opinion.

Other people (like me) believe it is harmful. The reason it’s bad is because no matter what you call it, at the end of the day it is still discrimination. Granted, it’s well-intended, so it becomes discrimination in a positive way. Maybe if they called it “positive discrimination” it would lessen my revulsion. At least then there would be intrinsic acknowledgement in the name for what it truly is. You can call it affirmative action if you want to, but it is discrimination nonetheless. Is discrimination inherently bad? Yes! This is self-evident. That’s my opinion. This is because we were all created equal (this doesn’t mean we all have equal abilities, but that we should have equal protection before the law).

Why is affirmative action such a bad thing? Because it goes beyond “it’ll never be perfect.” It is designed to be more imperfect. It’s actually premeditated to be extra unfair—through introduction of gender and race “positive” bias. This causes widespread resentment. This is the evil menace that lurks beneath these politically correct programs. It gives one “group” a reason to resent another “group.” The social engineers are trying to erase negative stereotypes. Meanwhile these programs cause jealousy and bad feelings toward the groups they were designed to facilitate. This makes the whole concept of affirmative action a complete mockery.

In the end we all just want our fair shot. No one likes it when someone cuts in front of them in line. This is especially true if you’ve been waiting a very long time and the person who cut the queue has not. OBAP and WIA scholarship winners are undoubtedly lucky, popular, nice, and very capable people and pilots. If I met the winners I would shake their hands and congratulate them for their good fortune. Hooray for them! It’s nothing personal; it’s not their fault that these practices have become institutionalized. It’s not that they don’t deserve to get hired by a major. They should just have to wait in the same line just as long as the rest of us.
 
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I know two men who have won Women in Aviation scholarships. Go to the WIA website and you'll find their names posted there.

I know another one that will win one this year :)
 
Very well composed, Cyclone. I firnly believe that the pro affirmative action crowd simply has not grasped the quiet damage such social engineering has wraught on race realtions. Furthermore, the belief that one race is inferior to another, while not dead, is no longer brought up in polite company, nor given a platform in the media. One of the few areas of debate remaining is affirmative action - imagine the goodwill that would stem from simply dropping it.

Anyway, one wonders why organizations can't call themseelves "People In Aviation", or the "Organization of Human Airline Pilots."
 
Another thought:


The nascence of affirmative action was due to the fact (and there are abundant court cases as evidence) that White Males were given preferential hiring AND treatment in the workplace. Affirmative action was to "even the playing field." Has it?

I believe that it has narrowed the gap in some areas and widened it in others.


Case in point:


How about those of us that fall within that "minority" category that are looked upon differently? This does not bode well with me since we (the majority of us) have EARNED our places to be where we are.

A personal example is the following: Flying OE with a Check Airman. Day #1, Leg #2 and he looked over while we were enroute and posed the following question: So, how many women work here? I knew that he was referring to the number of women pilots.

Question to all: You are a new hire, on probation, working on OE with a Check Airman that you are not familiar with. How would you answer the question?

This was my response (after quickly thinking that I still wanted to be gainfully employed upon landing): I don't know. I think that there are "X" number of women. Why do you ask? His response: Oh, I haven't seen any of you guys in Ops.

Should he have known being a management pilot? Yes. Should have it ever been asked? No. Why was it? I do not know. Is this even a relevant question to concern yourself with?

Why was it irritating? It is an inappropriate question because he singled me out due to the fact that I was female. If he had made the comment referring to my freight background, it wouldn't have even phased me (i.e., I haven't flown with any other freight pilots, how many of them were in your class?).

The other side of affirmative action.
 
Did you file a sensativity grievance with the P.C. ministry?

Affirmative action will do nothing, and is designed to do nothing, to stop jackazs checkairman or jackazs people on websites from making jackazs comments.
 
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"another thought"

FurloghedGal--interesting that you picked that as your flightinfo moniker. Why not FreightFurlo? I mean...if you really do identify so much with being a freight pilot and the gal part is no big deal. At least that's how you want the check airman to see things. But, you call yourself FurloughedGal. So it's OK for you to bring it up, but not OK for the check airman to raise the issue? I think it's how you take it; it is an issue and it's OK to talk about it. It's OK to ask you about it. It's not an inappropriate question. Maybe the guy was trying to find out if there was a problem; if there was a reason the female pilots didn't feel comfortable at the lounge. Maybe he was trying to help (after all he is a check airman) by doing his job. Yet you assumed the question was meant in a bad way.

It's inappropriate if he asks you out on a date or makes a comment about some aspect of your anatomy. If he's asking because he wants to know why none of the females go to the lounge, it's maybe because he wants to make sure things are OK for you in the lounge.

In an ideal world, everyone would just see you as a pilot. You would "look" the same as everyone else; same goes for race. It would be great if no one "noticed" the color of a pilot's skin (especially when it's not a white guy). But they still do. And until we get there, to that point where it doesn't matter, it seems a logical question for management to ask. To find out the climate of the environment. The reason is to make sure the environment is not hostile to you (a woman) or someone who looks different. After all...you are different. You said it in your name.

FurloughedGal's comment
"How about those of us that fall within that "minority" category that are looked upon differently? This does not bode well with me since we (the majority of us) have EARNED our places to be where we are."

Earned? Yes. Didn't we all!

I don't know but would be interested to find out re. the SWA 12 Jan class...are there any WIA or OBAP winners in the class?

Other questions:

When did the poolies who will be in the class interview/type?
When did the scholarship winners who will be in the class interview/type? (although they don't technically interview)

Because if scholarship winners are in class sooner...hmmm...and they never really had to go through the same interview process that the poolies went through (the last interviews with SWA were in March of 2002, scholarship winners just found out this year they were in). Anyway, it's not that they didn't EARN it, it's that they got to cut to the front of the line. That's what causes the hostility.
 
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Is it right that a minority receives preferential treatment that he or she gets a class date five classes ahead of another individual. I dont think so at all, now it is screwing with seniority for the rest of someones career. Im all for these scholarships that help minorities in aviation, but dont screw me and tens of other guys by bucking the class date. How do you guys feel about this scenario? Does it happen?
 
How about those of us that fall within that "minority" category that are looked upon differently? This does not bode well with me since we (the majority of us) have EARNED our places to be where we are.
Your "minority" is roughly 50% of the population. I am certain you earned your place - guess what......so did I.
You are a new hire, on probation, working on OE with a Check Airman that you are not familiar with. How would you answer the question?
"Funny you should ask - I'm new here and I was going to ask you the same question." I think what his question displayed more akin to stupidity than "the other side of affirmative action."

I think aviation is a difficult career for a woman to establish herself in. I think it is also difficult for minorities. I think it is also difficult for a white male. Do you honestly think it was easier for me than it was for you? I laugh....ha. You need to decide to put away that chip on your shoulder -or- be miserable for the rest of your career. I fly with arrogant abrasive people from time to time as well. Move on. It's good to have you on the team.
 
nice job flip

Quote
"I can 100% guarantee, that those of you on here screaming the loudest about how "wrong" these scholorships are, should these orgainizations want to offer YOU one, would be the first in line to accept and jump to the head of the class with both elbows and your ENTITLED flag flying. Without stopping to even think twice."

Flip--

There is no way you can predict the behavior of anyone on this board in a hypothetical situation with any degree of accuracy. Not possible. That is one hollow guarantee you made.

Quote
"What a bunch of hypoctitical putzs."

Why would anyone try to make a rational, well thought out argument to try to make their point? Simple name-calling is just so much more effective.
:rolleyes:
 
Houman, everybody pays pool dues

Southwest does not award scholarships to have people work for other airlines. If SWA buys you a type rating they do it so that you will work for Southwest. Therefore, getting the scholarship is getting the job, period, unless you fail the checkride. You go through the same process and need the same qualifications. Once people are in the pool they wait for their turn like anyone else.
 
While I agree with the majority of feminists causes and I admire their passion and commitment, often times their approach leaves much to be desired. But before the Earth gets a S.W.A.T. Team that comes and takes me away to the reprogramming camp for the estrogen impaired where I’ll learn to become a more nurturing, sensitive man with a developed feminine side who can bake bread and then perform foreplay for five hours at a pop, before that happens, may I put forth the following suggestion:

Sisters, let’s be more inclusive of different approaches to this thing.

Many of today’s younger women have become alienated from the feminist movement because of the extreme messages being sent by its more vociferous leaders. No one likes to be told they’re a traitor because they quit their job to stay home with the baby, or like to wear high heels and make-up. You can’t spend every nanosecond of life trying to elevate the gender. There has to be room for compromise for allowing for differences between women. We need to respect Shannon Faulkner and Shannon Tweed.

Now look, I’m not trying to sell you a carton of Virginia Slims here, but listen to me. Yes, women still find doors shut tighter than a Jehovah’s Witness approaching Mark Furman’s house. And yes, yes, most corporate headquarters have more glass ceilings than Carl Sagan’s townhouse. But for women to fixate only on what they haven’t accomplished without stepping back to marvel at how quickly and far they have advanced in the past twenty years is gonna make them feel more f*cked over than lining up for two hours to see a taping of Mike and Maddy to only discover that Maddy’s been sidelined by the flu.

You know what I want? I want to live in a world where women are allowed to fail as badly as men and then get a better job and a raise just like men. And I’m hoping you’ll remember that I said that and I was always on your side ‘cause I don’t wanna be hurt in the coming revolution.

And by the way, don’t you all look sexy in your little uniforms?

Of course, that’s just my wife’s opinion. I could be wrong.
 
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swerpipe,
I did a little checking and was told that there were 3 people awarded the type scholorship. One has completed the type through higher power (all recipiants have to go there) and will be offered a seat in the January class. He only interviewed in Aug of this year and recieved his type a month ago. The other two will be taking it in Dec and will be offered a spot in the next two classes after Jan. So I am sorry but you are wrong and they will spend little to no time in the pool and will be pushed ahead of the pack that has been swimming for up to 2 years. Based soley on an association that if the orginization was called the "White pilots Association" would be called everything from a racist pig to a zionistic Nazi and would be ridiculed as being an affront to everything that a melting pot of a non dicriminating nation should be. I would have to agree with them too just like the other similar but darker association is.
So, everyone that misses the class date by one number for first class, two numbers for the second, three numbers for the third and all those that get pushed into later classes because of the three additional taking the fourth class. This is not something I would expect from SW (United yes) creating animosity in thier own employee group (AMR style) by elevating a group of people based soley on their affliliation with a racial orginazation. I hope I didn't offend to many but I believe just like the courts that the hiring process should be gender and color blind. Based soley on their merits and achievements.
 
CMON you guys gotta be kidding. "If you miss the first class by one number and get in the third instead when you could have been in the first." This world is politics. Who you know, not what ya know. Guys get "thrown" in ahead of others all the time for a variety of reasons, Daddy is a captain, women, black, they know whoever. It is a fact of life. It just so happens that the OBAP thing is high profile so that is ONE that you know about. What it boils down to is are you qualified for the job ? Some guys with plenty of hours may be a so so pilot while a guy with a little less time could be better. It is all subject to interpretation. Some of you make me sick with this crap. Nobody owes you anything. Some of you make good points but there are documented cases of minorities being past over for jobs while whites with less experience were hired. US Air got hung out to dry over that one. Besides the fact that pilots are the greediest bunch there is. Everybody could give a crap less about the other guy as long as they are junior to you. Just quit the whining go get a job and be happy. The world is not fair. The justice system that you point out is also one of the most corrupt institutions going. It sounds as though some of you need a few more trips around the block. Can we all just get along .......
 
class date

Snoox

Thanks for the info and for answering my earlier question.

The unofficial pool list has the ~200 poolies waiting

Interview dates: June 2001-March 2002
Type Dates: 1984-September 2002
Class Dates: Jan '03-???

OBAP sholarship--to the front of the line
"interview" August 2003
Type Date: October 2003

Just trying to understand how it works. Some think it's fair and some don't. I think it causes "bad blood." The other thing it can do is after a while, if you treat someone like they're different in a "you can go right to the front sir" way...it takes a big person to not expect that treatment down the line.

Based on the type of people SWA hires, I bet that whoever won the scholarship won't fall into that trap (of thinking they're better than everyone). Let's hope so.
 
Stand corrected

Snoox48,

If you are right, I stand corrected and obviously I don't agree with it. Obviously the guys on the receiving end are not the ones making the call so nobody should take it out on them, besides they are good people. But I tell you, I am as surpised as you are...
 
Swer,
I know at least one of them are good people because that is how I found my information out. I even helped him study so he could get his type. But I still think it is wrong that the company wouldn't just put them in line just like everyone else. I definatly don't fault them for taking advantage of a biased system.

Kn65,
Your a moron make sure to identify yourself so in every grocery store line, seniority list, DMV line, line at Disneyland, line at security checkpoints, line to get on the aircraft, line to takeoff, line at the post office or any other line/seniority/promotion/quality of life issue I can take advantage of my minority status and the fact that my daddy is a captain and cut ahead of you in every aspect of life because at one time someone else was discriminated against. So I guess more discrimnation makes the previous discrimnation right.

Kn65 you are what is wrong with this world by just accepting it because that is the way it is so get over it. With that attitude every African American would still be in the cotton fields because "It is a fact of life" and "This world is politics"
 
Cyclone:

FYI: I do post under another "call sign" on this board that isn't gender specific.

I like FurloughedGal because at the time I picked it, I was freshley on the street from the events of 09-11, disappointed that I had my first airline job (one where I didn't have to sling boxes and/or carry pax luggage) disappear, and the furlough event was a defining moment in my life.

There was a recent post about the "Best & Worst" experiences you have had in this business. I read the posts and should have responded in kind, but did not. I will state that the Best & Worst experiences have to be the same -- being furloughed. I learned a lot about myself, decided to take a different path to my dream job of flying, and have had a wonderful time living in cities I never thought I would reside. As such, I haven't changed the name and still use it from time to time.

As for my post, I was trying to reiterate the original point that affirmative action TODAY is affecting everyone negatively.



Purple Haze:


If he had asked over a few beers during a layover, I know that my reaction would have been different and a different response would have been illicited. I don't have a chip on my shoulder about being female, just trying to point out that there are times when inappropriate comments occur.

Honestly, easier? No. This is a tough business to stay in to the finish line these days. Any of us who are "doing what it takes to keep flying" instead of pursuing other careers should be considered fortunate/unfortunate depending on the circumstances.

You made an excellent point about the percentage of the population, etc. That is what the original basis of affirmative action was trying to equalize -- if there is a population base of [insert % of male/female white/non-white], then the workplace should reflect the same. Is it relfective in aviation? NO. Is it reflective in nursing? NO. Education? NO. Engineering? NO. Should we as citizens try to make changes? Should the legislature? Should the courts? Where/when does the line need to be drawn? When is enough? These are questions that surface on a daily basis and need to be discussed.




Not sure who posted:

As for the comment on sensitivity -- did you see that I'm a former/current freight dog? Goodness.

Are you suggesting that no one has ever said anything that you found offensive? inappropriate? in a work-place setting. IMHO, it just gets old and once in a great while, I am annoyed.


Finally, dare I say I am also an attorney licensed to practice in a state in the MidWest? I guess that "sense of fair play and justice" mentality is part of this package.
 

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