Saving Money by Not Using Enough Prist?

[erj-145mech]

Another Flight Options Beechjet Dual Flameout[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
A Flight Options Beechjet 400A (N691TA) yesterday afternoon experienced a dual-engine flameout en route from Indianapolis International Airport to Marco Island Airport, Fla., while on a positioning leg. The crew declared an emergency and landed safely at Jacksonville International Airport. This marks the second such Beechjet incident at the Cleveland-based fractional provider. On July 12, 2004, a Flight Options Beechjet 400A (N455CW) experienced a dual flameout over the Gulf of Mexico with seven passengers aboard. The crew of N455CW was able to restart the right engine and safely divert to Sarasota, Fla. The NTSB said in January that N455CW had a lower-than-normal amount of anti-icing additive in its tanks. Beechjet 400As are not equipped with fuel heaters. NTSB investigator Jim Hookey, who also investigated the July 12, 2004 dual flameout, was unavailable at press time to comment on yesterday's incident. Flight Options has not yet responded to requests for comment.[/FONT]

 

[learflyer]

So, what's the first thing you would do with a dual engine flame out, junior? Those guys (probably my friends) did a great job to get that thing on the ground. Don't post absurd crap like that!!

 

[semperfido]

one is an incident, two a possible pattern. i thought it was an interesting read. friends or not

 

[CutEmUp]

Obviously they forgot to check the amount of prist in thier fuel.(sarcasm)

Maybe it was the fueler that forgot to put in the attitive.

 

[jaxpilot]

yeah my FBO got called out to tow em to the maintenance place. Happened about 30 minutes before I showed up to work.

 

[erj-145mech]

So, what's the first thing you would do with a dual engine flame out, junior? Those guys (probably my friends) did a great job to get that thing on the ground. Don't post absurd crap like that!!

Hey crap for brains, exactly where did I say anything derogatory about the crew or their performance? I think that the crew did an exemplary job in this situation.

Its not absurd crap, its a factual report. If you don't like it, you have my permission not to read it. If it hit a nerve, then you need to either 1) fix an obvious problem in your company, 2) get some professional therapy, or 3) step away from the computer, and enjoy an adult beverage. I'd hate to be the one to raise your blood pressure causing you to lose your medical.

As far a failing to check on the amount of prist in the fuel, isn't it still the pilots responsibility to ensure that the aircraft is serviced properly? If not, who is this responsibility delegated to?

 

[HS125]

As far a failing to check on the amount of prist in the fuel, isn't it still the pilots responsibility to ensure that the aircraft is serviced properly? If not, who is this responsibility delegated to?

There is no way for the pilot to check the amount of prist in the fuel. Prist is either 1) pre-mixed in the fuel, 2) added to the fuel at the fuel truck during pumping, or 3) sprayed from a aerosol can into the fuel stream at the fuel nozzel.

1 & 2 are the standard and the pilot has no control over the delivery of the amount of prist and I doubt that most pilots would know how to determine that prist is being added to the fuel in the case of #2 above.

When the pilot orders fuel the pilot normally indicates that prist is either needed or not and after that it is usally left to the line personnel to make sure that prist is added to the fuel.

 

[semperfido]

however, a pilot could order with prist and then at another stop order without which would dilute the mixture over time. so it seems that the fuel loads will most probably be investigated.

 

[jaxpilot]

FLOPS always orders Prist on their Beechjets when we handle them. Now I have had some Citations and tip-tanked Lears say no Prist, and I always reconfirm it and they say "theres enough in there already." whatever...

 

[Swamp Fox]

I doubt that most pilots would know how to determine that prist is being added to the fuel in the case of #2 above.

When the pilot orders fuel the pilot normally indicates that prist is either needed or not and after that it is usally left to the line personnel to make sure that prist is added to the fuel.

There is usually a clearly marked ON/OFF valve on the truck for the additive. It is most definitely the pilot's responsibility to ensure that the fueler selects the valve to ON if additive has been requested. Beyond that, obviously, there is no way to know that the system is working properly. I had a crewmate who had been sent to supervise refueling. He stood around jawing with the fueler while they both stared right at the valve in the OFF position.

I have never understood pilots who don't supervise refueling. How else can you assure the safety and accuracy of the operation? If you just place the order with the CSR, it is easy for communication failures, not to mention plain incompetency, to occur before the fuel gets into the plane. On two occassions, I have even had line service attempt to fuel my plane when the order was for another! I would sure hate to pay a bill for fuel that went into somebody else's plane!

 

[Groundpounder]

Line guys suck

 

[MNR]

I have encountered some fantastic people working the line on different ramps. They do not all suck.

Also, no matter what its the PICs responsibility to monitor refueling operations. It dosen't happen often but I have caught both, the valve on when I asked for no prist and the valve off when I wanted it.

 

[erj-145mech]

I've also seen where the pre-mix valve was on, but the 5 gallon can was empty. I've also seen flight departments specify that a crewmember check the sumps on the refuel trucks for water and sediment prior to servicing.

I don't trust line men without working with them to see what their work habits are like. I've seen good, and I've seen bad.

If the pilot wishes to delgate the responsibility to someone else, thats all well and good, but its still the pilots responsibility to ensure that the aircraft was serviced in accordance with the AFM/company proceedures, whichever has precedence for his operation.

 

[CutEmUp]

Pilots are not the only professionals in this industry. Sure it is the pilots ultimate responsibility to determine the safety of the flight, but how far can you go?

Line techs should be trained professionals and you should only have your aircraft serviced at FBOs that provide adequate training. (NATA safety 1st certification is a start.) Unless you take a tent and camp with your airplane, there is no way to observe everything that ever goes on around it.

 

[IFLYHI]

Is the prist flowing?

When receiving fuel from a truck that injects prist, there should always be a way to visually determine if the prist is actually flowing. The most common is a small round glass jar, which sometimes sits right on top of the 5 gallon bucket of prist, and sometimes mounts somewhere else on the truck. If you look at this glass jar WHILE THE FUEL IS BEING PUMPED, you should see the prist bubbling (or percolating) inside the glass jar. If the jar is empty, you probably aren't getting any prist. On older trucks, I've also seen an inline "pinwheel" type indicator which spins every 10 seconds or so, when the prist pump injects a squirt of prist into the line.

While it is certainly not the pilots responsibility to know the inner workings of every type of fuel truck, the more informed you are, the better.

Personally, I have experienced lack of prist in a BeechJet. I was flying from LWM to FAR. About 20 minutes out of FAR, we got a fuel filter bypass light on one engine. There are 2 airframe fuel filters in the belly(one per engine), which cause the light. I reduced the power on that engine, the light went out, and then it came back on when I put the power lever back forward. This confirmed in my mind that it was really a filter bypass issue. By the time we got on the ground, the bypass light was on at idle. It probably wouldn't have run much longer.

Anyway, when I went back to the FBO where I got the fuel, they said that I definately was getting prist, and that they had just filled up their prist can the day before. So then I watched the little glass jar as they were fueling me, and it was empty! No percolating! After going back to their maintenance building, they determined that the prist pump had lost its prime when they had refilled it the day before. Maybe it lost its prime because they ran it out of prist before they refilled it.

So if I'm standing there while they are fueling, I try to always look at the back of the truck for the "little glass jar". If you can't find it, just ask the line boy, and he should be able to point it out to you.

Hope this helps someone.

 

[Dep676]

Well to that jagoff that started the thread. There is no way that the crew did not use prist to save money. The way things are going at Options right now. The crew would be more likely to spend more money on getting something they did not need.