Satellite Airport Within Class C

[missionarypilot]

Yesterday I took off from a private grass strip (on the charts) that lies within Toledo's Class C surface area and called approach and told them I was just off (it's just inside their surface area, about 4.5 NM to the NW). The controller told me to remain clear of class charlie and of course since I took off at a field within class charlie I explained to him I was already in class charlie. He came back very annoyed and said, "I would strongly advise that next time you not do that." When it got quiet, I asked him what he wanted me to do, since I was doing what the FAR's say to do. He came back with something about the hierarchy and told me that I should contact the tower on the ground next time before I took off.
FAR 91.130(c)(2)(ii) states "From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace area as soon as practicable after departing." (which is what I did)
Am I missing something here or do some controllers just need to relax?

 

[USMCmech]

FAR 91.130(c)(2)(ii) states "From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace area as soon as practicable after departing." (which is what I did)

Am I missing something here or do some controllers just need to relax?

You are correct, you were not in violation of any FARs,

That said, it isn't a very bright thing to do. Flying within 5 miles of busy airspace without talking to any controllers isn't safe IMHO.

Look at it from the controllers viewpoint. A 1200 target pops up right next to the the runway that he has no idea who it is, what it is, or where it is going. All of a sudden he has to vector everybody away from this random target. Now you call and tie up his freq for almost a minute stating you location, intentions, ect while he is watching the target of the 737 converging with you.

As opposed to calling the tower "cessna 123AB at XYZ airstrip ready to take off to the north." Now tower can tell you to wait a minute because there is a 737 about to fly overhead and can give you a trasponder code. Your radio should have no problem reciving from 5 miles away on the ground in normal circumstances.

There is a similar situation at SAT with a small airstrip 3 miles north. If an airplane were to do what you did, he would cause a near midair with any traffic departing on runway 3. So the pilots based there always give SAT tower a call when they are ready to take off.

That which is leagel is not always safe.

 

[missionarypilot]

I agree that which is legal is not always safe, but Toledo is hardly busy airspace. And the fact that I was flying WELL below any departures (<1000' AGL) and I wasn't even in the path of the departure corridor. I don't know how a 737 climbing out would even come close to any bug smasher at <1000' AGL 5 miles away. (it was NOT "right next to the runway) And even if he did, it's not the controllers' responsibility to vector an aircraft away from another in VMC, only to call out the traffic.

Flying within 5 miles of busy airspace without talking to any controllers isn't safe IMHO
I did call the controller as stated per the FAR's (as soon as practicable), which is what every helicopter I've ever heard does as well when departing in Class C within the surface area. Here in Columbus (which has a MUCH busier class C) there are helicopters popping up all the time inside their surface area when I'm banner towing, and the controllers are fine when they call them up.
I fly in and around and underneath busy class B and C airspace every day banner towing. I talk to controllers all the time, and I talk to them even if I don't have to, just to let them know I'm there, because like you said, even though it may be legal and you may not technically be in their airspace, it may not be safe. I just found it interesting that this controller at a very quiet class C gets all hot and bothered by it (even though I was completely legal) and even though it was not even close to a safety issue at all. Even if there were a 737 departing right at me, he would be WELL above me by the time he's 5 NM out!
And I've learned that controllers will let you fly right next to the runway as long as you're not in the approach/departure corridor, but if you're underneath their airspace (and don't even need to be talking to them) and in the way of their approach/arrival corridor it makes them nervous.

A 1200 target pops up right next to the the runway that he has no idea who it is, what it is, or where it is going.
I was talking to him before I was even on his radar, I believe, since radar usually doesn't pick up primary or secondary targets until they're at least a few hundred feet above the ground (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
Like I said, I ALWAYS do what's legal and I've learned what controllers don't like you doing, even though it may be legal, which usually just follows common sense. This just seemed to me like an overreacting controller.

 

[avbug]

I agree that which is legal is not always safe, but Toledo is hardly busy airspace. And the fact that I was flying WELL below any departures (<1000' AGL) and I wasn't even in the path of the departure corridor. I don't know how a 737 climbing out would even come close to any bug smasher at <1000' AGL 5 miles away.

I'm sure that's what the Mooney pilot thought before the collision with a Skywest Metro over SLC #2 airport years ago.

As USMCMech noted, what is legal is not necessarily safe. What is safe is not necessarily legal. Good wisdom dictates that if the operation is not both safe and legal, it does not happen.

Rather than justifying yourself, or excusing your act by blaming the controller, try a different approach. Thank the controller for a lesson learned, learn the lesson, and move on. You have the opportunity to call a tower or approach before departing a field underlying Class C or B...by all means do it. Get a squawk code early, let them know just who that blip is that's popping up.

Perhaps the 737 isn't the issue. Perhaps it's joe bugsmasher, just like you. that's being vectored in your area for an approach somewhere else...or perhaps another VFR target just like yourself. Who cares? Ask yourself this, without justifying yourself for legality...is there any reason why you couldn't make the call before departure from that outlying airfield? Probably not.

Next time, make the call. Lesson learned.

 

[CFIse]

Next time, make the call. Lesson learned.

Or conversely continue to do what the regulations require, and if a controller hassles you again give the facility a call and have their procedures people give the controller a little re-training.

Facilities try to change the Federal Aviation Regulations on the fly all the time, but there's a reason there's a process and a procedure in place for that to happen, and if this approach control wants changes made they need to follow it.

If its "local practice" to give the tower a call before departure, well certainly you can be a helpful pilot and try it out, but you don't have to, you're not required to, and if it's not convenient or possible then there you go.

 

[avbug]

That's right. Be the hero. Stand up for your legal rights. Don't make the radio call. Stand your ground and don't give an inch.

And next time you cross the street when a semi truck is coming, you keep on walking, because you're a pedestrian, and you have the right of way...

Re-educate ATC. Brilliant.

Lord knows it might save you from actually contacting them before departure. Thank heavens at least one soul out there is willing to change the system...before it's too late.

 

[midlifeflyer]

And next time you cross the street when a semi truck is coming, you keep on walking, because you're a pedestrian, and you have the right of way...

Oh puh-lease. Yeah, next time you take off from a busy satellite nontowered airport with 6 airplanes in the pattern, be sure to call departure from the ground instead of paying attention to and communicating with the traffic in the immediate vicinity until clear of the pattern.

How about doing what's apropriate for the situation? Pehaps using a little PIC judgment? That's probably why the rule ("as soon as practicable after departing") is written the way it is.

What would I actualy have done in the originally posted situation? Assuming a small private field with no other traffic and probably not that much traffic on a regular basis that is within the surface area of towered airspace, I would have given the tower a call from the ground when read to roll. In that situation, I think that "as soon as practicable" means as soon as the wheels are off the ground and, given how quite my airfield is, why wait?

 

[avbug]

Yeah, next time you take off from a busy satellite nontowered airport with 6 airplanes in the pattern, be sure to call departure from the ground instead of paying attention to and communicating with the traffic in the immediate vicinity until clear of the pattern.

Far better making the call on the ground when one has the luxury of taking the time, than in flight when one can't pull over to make a phone call. Making the call to ATC prior to departure makes far more sense. Especially considering all ATC might do is assign a squawk code and advise to call them again when airborne.

You don't by chance let your radio look for traffic for you, do you?

The original poster goes to lengths to ensure that the reader understands that the airspace is not busy. 6 airplanes in the pattern?

You can be assured that when I depart a satellite field that's nontowered but within radio range of the primary airport for which the overlying airspace exists, I'm talking to that facility prior to departure. I can't imagine a good reason not to do so, when one has the opportunity to do so.

Facilities try to change the Federal Aviation Regulations on the fly all the time,

No, they don't.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The original poster goes to lengths to ensure that the reader understands that the airspace is not busy.

Apparently there aren't any semi-trucks either, yet you managed to come up with one just to have an extreme inapplicable example to attack another post, and to support your own hard and fast rule that did not appear to be limited to quiet airports .

You don't by chance let your radio look for traffic for you, do you?

Well, considering that your earlier post

Perhaps it's joe bugsmasher, just like you. that's being vectored in your area for an approach somewhere else...or perhaps another VFR target just like yourself. Who cares? Ask yourself this, without justifying yourself for legality...is there any reason why you couldn't make the call before departure from that outlying airfield?

seems to suggest that the radio is more important than your eyes to you, I think that's a "mute" point.

 

[avbug]

We have posters in this thread wanting to re-educate ATC. We have you wanting to listen to traffic before departing, to the exclusion of lifting a finger to contact ATC before departure...before things get busier. We have the original poster who is too busy feeling wronged by getting good counsel from the controller to learn. We have a general theme that we have a poster who is in his legal right, so throw common sense to the wind.

No good reason exists to fail to call ATC before departure, unless ATC can't reached from the ground. Calling ATC isn't looking for traffic; it's giving the controller a heads-up, obtaining a squawk, and conducting preflight preparation before getting busy in the air.

Being so preoccupied with listening for traffic that you can't lift a finger to simplify the flight by taking care of alll you can before getting airborne, is letting the radio look for traffic. Big difference. Notifying the controller of your intentions before departure isn't hurting a thing, isn't taking away from your ability to look for traffic (or listen for it), and is better than diverting your attention once airborne when looking for traffic is most important of all.

Re-educate ATC. Sure. That happens all the time, right?

The recurring theme here is quoting the AIM mantra and repeatedly insisting that this is all that's required, we're within our rights, so gosh-darn it, we're going to do it. Much like the pedestrian who knows he has the right of way when crossing the street, and insists on it at all costs. After all, he's technically, legally correct. He'll cross the street. He may get hurt or killed, but the semi truck must give way.

If he survives crossing the street, that ubiquitous most-dangerous-part-of-every-flight, he can proceed to the airport where out citizen kane can depart an uncontrolled field in Class C, and demand that ATC be re-educated. Insist on his legal rights. That semi truck isn't so unrelated to mindlessly insisting on waiting until airborne to contact ATC...different shades of the same topic.