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Safety board renews call for cockpit cameras

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colorado418

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
128
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Safety officials are stepping up pressure on the Federal Aviation Administration to require video cameras in cockpits so accident investigators will have better information on what causes plane crashes.

The National Transportation Safety Board launched a two-day hearing Tuesday to renew its call for large and small planes to be equipped with crash-resistant cockpit image recorders.

"We need to light the fires," said National Transportation Safety Board member Carol Carmody, who will chair the hearing. The NTSB recommended that the FAA require large aircraft to be equipped with cameras four years ago.

Supporting the idea was Ken Smart of the British Air Accidents Investigation Branch, who said cameras are used on military aircraft in the United Kingdom and are very useful in understanding the human actions that lead to airplane accidents.

Nonetheless, the idea of cameras in the cockpits drew strong opposition from airline pilots.

John David of the Allied Pilots Association, which represents pilots at American Airlines, said having a camera monitor everything they do would affect their ability to perform.

The Air Line Pilots Association, the largest pilots union, issued a statement saying "the benefits of video imaging are vastly overrated, because far more effective and efficient tools exist."

Pilots object to the idea because they're concerned about their privacy and they fear that images, unlike technical data, can give rise to subjective interpretations of pilots' actions in the seconds before a crash.

John Cox, executive air safety chairman of the ALPA, said cameras in the cockpit would be a waste of money.

"We don't get a particularly good product and it's expensive," said Cox before the hearing. "If we have that money we can spend, let's get data that we can use. Objective data."

The safety board maintains that cameras would have helped safety investigators understand the smoke and fire conditions in the cockpit of two deadly plane crashes: Swissair Flight 111 on September 2, 1998, which crashed off the coast of Halifax, Nova Scotia, en route from New York to Geneva, Switzerland; and Valujet Flight 592 on May 11, 1996, which plunged into the Florida Everglades on a flight from Miami to Atlanta.

In both crashes, cameras could have helped investigators understand how the fires started, what the crews did to put them out and whether the crew managed to clear smoke from the cockpit. The safety board said such information might steer them toward modifying firefighting training, procedures or systems.

Cameras would have also helped answer questions about what happened in the cockpit of EgyptAir Flight 990 from New York to Cairo on October 31, 1999. The NTSB said the co-pilot was alone in the cockpit when he disconnected the autopilot, reduced power to the engines, and sent the plane into the Atlantic Ocean off the Nantucket coast. The Egyptian government rejects any suggestion that the co-pilot deliberately crashed the Boeing 767.

Carmody said cameras would have also saved time and money in determining what caused the twin-engine plane crash that killed Sen. Paul Wellstone and seven others in Eveleth, Minnesota, on October 25, 2002.

The safety board ultimately found the probable cause of the accident was the pilots' inattention to the aircraft's instruments. The investigation into that crash gave rise to the recommendations that all small planes be equipped with crash-proof cameras.

Carmody said image-recording technology is much less complicated -- and therefore cheaper -- than flight data recorders or cockpit voice recorders.

For small planes that aren't required to have cockpit voice recorders or flight data recorders, "it would give us something," Carmody said.

The Federal Aviation Administration, the agency that would implement the NTSB's recommendations for aviation safety, has taken the first steps in developing technical standards for video recorders.

FAA spokeswoman Diane Spitalieri called the recorders "an extra level of safety for aircraft."

But Cox, the pilots' representative, said interpreting video images is always subjective and therefore cannot lead to safety improvements.

It would be much better, he said, to spend limited dollars on data recorders that record more information about a flight than current recorders do.

"Objective data has served us well," Cox said. "That's where we need to stay focused."

Cox also said legal protections of video images aren't ironclad.

Carmody said the NTSB is required to treat video images the same way it treats cockpit tapes. The board never releases the actual recordings to the public, but makes transcripts available.
 
Ok, you have a aircraft that is full of smoke and they think you can see what is happening, and a camera would show that in a smoke filled cockpit, riiiight.
 
Anyone want to guess who is one of the strongest lobbying groups for this?


ATLA

America Trial Lawyers Association

It ain't for safety, it's for lawsuits.

Want to know who get lots of money from the ATLA?

The Democrats. This is a verifiable fact, so don't bother denying it.

It will nice having John Edwards with all his trial lawyer sympathies in the White House, dontcha think?

How's ALPA gonna explain their endorsement of Kerry now?

Oh that's right, ALPA national is populated by the arrogant and stupid.
 
Anyone want to guess who is one of the strongest lobbying groups for this?


ATLA

America Trial Lawyers Association

It ain't for safety, it's for lawsuits.

Want to know who get lots of money from the ATLA?

The Democrats. This is a verifiable fact, so don't bother denying it.

It will nice having John Edwards with all his trial lawyer sympathies in the White House, dontcha think?

How's ALPA gonna explain their endorsement of Kerry now?

Oh that's right, ALPA national is populated by the arrogant and stupid
There you go bringing logic and facts into this....the Dems are gonna getcha!
 
Cockpit cameras: easily defeated with a foam coffee cup. NO ONE will be watching me (electronically) in the cockpit, EVER.

Does anyone remember the AA "Gorilla hands" episode? For a while in the DC-10, the pax could view the throttle quadrant via CC TV. Apparently, some Capt. donned a set of big, hairy, costume gorilla hands. The pax saw what appeared to be some grotesque beast pushing the throttles up for takeoff. Some pax whined "NOT professional" and the guy got in big trouble. The corporate lawyers finally realized what a bad idea the CP camera was and they disappeared.
 
And if they mount it flush to the wall (the smart move to keep it from being a hat rack), a Post-it Note would do nicely.
 
200 mph duct tape with a picture of your choice on the sticky side.
 
100LL... Again! said:
The Democrats. This is a verifiable fact, so don't bother denying it.
The National Transportation Safety Board launched a two-day hearing Tuesday to renew its call for large and small planes to be equipped with crash-resistant cockpit image recorders.

You want to guess who is in charge of the NTSB?
 
FLB717 said:
Ok, you have a aircraft that is full of smoke and they think you can see what is happening, and a camera would show that in a smoke filled cockpit, riiiight.
Fire departments are equiped with video equipment that lets them see in smoke filled rooms.
 
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My concern would be what management would do with any images. Would it be a real time video stream or would it be like the CVR where you could only get to it in the event of a crash?

My next concern would be the costs. The airlines are already struggling to keep afloat. The number of crashes that occur versus the number of flights that go out on a daily basis, ratio wise, is very low.

I agree with what someone else said about this being for lawsuit purposes. The actions of any pilot could be misconstrued, especially by a lay person. I am sure they would get some "aviation expert" who would gladly interpret your actions for a "fee."

If they were only doing this for understanding the actions taken in the cockpit, then I could see it. But I see a hidden agenda here. If they put restrictions on what the information could be used for, then it might not be so bad.

I feel for you guys and gals. I would not want someone judging my actions like this.

Is there a way for you all converge on DC and protest this?

Kathy
 
My next concern would be the costs. The airlines are already struggling to keep afloat. The number of crashes that occur versus the number of flights that go out on a daily basis, ratio wise, is very low.
Yes, same thoughts here. The wife and I were talking about this subject this morning along the same lines that you are thinking. Costs vs. the actual safety record of airlines. It would seem to us that putting cameras in the cockpit would instill a perception in the traveling public's mind, that there was a safety problem in cockpits of America's airliners.

If they were only doing this for understanding the actions taken in the cockpit, then I could see it. But I see a hidden agenda here. If they put restrictions on what the information could be used for, then it might not be so bad.
Hidden agenda? How about the laying of the foundation for automation in the cockpit?

First video cameras, then a secure digital data uplink system as a back up to pilot incapacitation, then the next thing you know...single pilot airliners.
 
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I do not like this idea whatsoever. It'll give airlines something to monitor and fire any pilot that makes one wrong move, and I have a feeling the cameras would make pilots a lot more nervous which in turn could lead to even more accidents....
 
FN FAL said:
It's amazing what video cameras can see...

http://www.uzitalk.com/images/user_posts/m-16.avi

Here is a link to the FLIR company website...

http://www.flir.com/imaging/index.aspx

I don't think the type of camera(s) that they would attempt to put into use on the flight deck or cabin, would be the same as a common homestyle camera used for taping baby's first steps or your kid's softball game.
Great,
How am I gonna get an M-16 into the cockpit, much less wanna let a magazine's worth loose in a pressurized a/c.
I would like to have my own M-16 for varmints though.
PBR
 
if they're gonna spend the money on technology to see thru smoke, etc. why not spend it on the flight crew so they can see and avoid the accident in the first place. seems kinda lame to do all this so they can see what you cant see and watch you burn it in in the blind.
 
Last words

My preconcieved comm into the mic if i know I'm a gonner with no hope for survival is going to be: "How'd that monkey get in here?" Beats "Ahhhhhhhh" all to hell, and gives the board a wrench in their works...
 
scoreboard said:
My preconcieved comm into the mic if i know I'm a gonner with no hope for survival is going to be: "How'd that monkey get in here?" Beats "Ahhhhhhhh" all to hell, and gives the board a wrench in their works...
A certain FO, I think it was at AA, always said for the CVR on short final "Daaaaaaamn! Lookit those tentacles!" - he assumed (rightly so) that most fatal accidents happen on final.

Another FO, at 300' on EVERY capt. landing, stated in a radio-host voice, again for the CVR, "Captain, I recommend a go-around!" Wanted to cover his a$$ for any concievable problem on landing!:p
 
scoreboard said:
My preconcieved comm into the mic if i know I'm a gonner with no hope for survival is going to be: "How'd that monkey get in here?" Beats "Ahhhhhhhh" all to hell, and gives the board a wrench in their works...
Right. I'm sure the board is gonna give one rat's a$$ about your "monkey" comment. Throw a wrench in their works? Hardly. :rolleyes:
 

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