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Rumor: UA to be Launch Customer for 787-10

ForgedBlade

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If we go into bankruptcy, it won't be because of LUAL. sCAL brought so much debt to this merger due to not filing bankruptcy like we did.

Delusional thinking like that could lead to revocation of that Third Class medical of yours on psychiatric grounds.
 

AirMike

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Delusional thinking like that could lead to revocation of that Third Class medical of yours on psychiatric grounds.

I guess we'll see in August. I've been furloughed for this merger and I intend on holding my rightful seniority after the SLI. Your '05 67 captains will be throwing gear for me soon. Just be glad we aren't showing you the "business end" like we did to Air Willy and the general practitioners at Frontier. If the SLI is anywhere CLOSE to the abomination that sCAL presented, bring NASA forms to work. LOTS of them. That isn't a threat, just a fact. My fellow practitioners will not stand for the outright thievery of jobs that the the sCAL side is attempting. We did everything we could to be good stewards of unionism and bent over backwards in our attempts at unity. To have that thrown in our face and to attempt to staple furloughed pilots that NEVER would have been furloughed if it wasn't for this merger.....well, if you don't see the obvious truth of the matter, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
 

Daddy69

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So let me get this straight, I am a CAL 2006 hire that can hold 737 Capt and approx 68% on the wide body (787 FO) and my overall relative seniority is 67%. On the CAL proposal I will stay at approx 67% relative seniority. On the UAL proposal I would loose 18% relative seniority. Do you really think that is "fair"?? Why should my career take such a hit and the UAL pilots get a windfall gain in relative seniority? Do you really think that's fair??
 
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densoo

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If we go into bankruptcy, it won't be because of LUAL. sCAL brought so much debt to this merger due to not filing bankruptcy like we did.
Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:42pm EDT
By Karen Brettell
NEW YORK, June 29 (Reuters) - Bond investors are demanding
a high yield to take on even the secured debt of UAL Corp
UAUA.O as declining travel demand continues to hurt revenues
at the company, the parent of United Airlines, and raises the
risk its liquidity could come under stress.
United Airlines on Friday sold $175 million in senior notes
backed by its U.S. aircraft spare parts. The notes were priced
at 90 cents on the dollar to earn a yield of 17 percent,
according to Thomson Reuters data.
"The pricing indicates lack of investor interest and
management desperation," CreditSights analysts Roger King,
Aidas Baublys and Brian Studioso said in a report on Monday.
"Whether it was due to banker exuberance or company
desperation is unclear, but this type of issuance is frequently
just a few steps from the grave
. It signifies that sources of
liquidity are up against a limit while investors have yet to
perceive any rising tide of seasonal demand," they said.
UAL denies that the pricing of the debt sale was out of
line with general market conditions.
"The transaction was oversubscribed with terms that reflect
the transaction structure, the nature of the collateral used
and the tight credit market," said UAL spokesperson Jean
Medina, in Chicago.
The sale "will further boost our liquidity as we continue
to take the right actions in response to the difficult
environment, adjusting capacity and reducing our cost
structure," she added. "We continue to take actions to raise
liquidity, having raised more than $500 million in the first
quarter alone."
LIQUIDITY CONCERNS
Concerns that UAL's liquidity could come under pressure
have increased as the outlook for travel demand remains bleak
and the risk of a renewed surge in fuel prices remains a risk.
Credit default swaps on UAL's debt are reflecting a high
bankruptcy concern
at 59 percent the sum insured as an upfront
cost, or $5.9 million to insure $10 million for five years, in
addition to annual payments of $500,000, according to data by
Markit.
Fitch Ratings this month cut UAL's issuer credit rating two
notches to CCC, eight steps below investment grade and a deeply
speculative grade
.
United could report substantially negative free cash flow
for the final three quarters of 2009, and the airline has $655
million of debt and capital leases maturing in the last three
quarters of the year, Fitch said.
"Even if revenue trends stabilize late in the year, the
airline faces over $1 billion in scheduled debt and capital
lease principal payments next year, raising the probability of
a deepening liquidity crisis," Fitch added.
Management has indicated that an estimated $1.7 billion in
remaining unencumbered assets could be used to improve
liquidity in the future, though much of these assets are older
aircraft and engines that may not be easily monetized, Fitch
said.
"United may have difficulty raising a large amount of new
capital over the near term as credit market conditions remain
very tight," Fitch said.
Meanwhile the ability of bondholders to obtain the parts
backing the recent debt sale in the event of bankruptcy may be
challenged, CreditSights said.
"The history of aircraft parts collateral in bankruptcy has
been spotty," and bondholders in a past case involving the
now-defunct TWA airline were wiped out when a bankruptcy judge
did not want to deal with commingled inventory, the analysts
said.
"Given the inherent limitations of spare parts collateral,
bondholders are betting their principal investment that the
issuer will not default over the next three years. That does
not seem to be a good bet right now," CreditSights said.
 
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AirMike

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It's all really simple. We bought you. If you are in doubt, look at the name on the side of the plane.
 

densoo

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It's all really simple. We bought you. If you are in doubt, look at the name on the side of the plane.
Ah, now I see why you're confused.

Remember SBC? They bought AT&T and then changed their name--to AT&T. America West? They bought US Airways and changed their name--to US Airways. Who are by the way acquiring bankrupt American Airlines and changing their name--to American Airlines. Marketing chooses the name, not Wall Street.

Check the first page of your "United" Airlines FOM. This may help:

United Airlines, Inc
FAA Designator Code: CALA
Certificate Number: CALA014A

http://av-info.faa.gov/detail.asp?DSGN_CODE=CALA&OPER_FAR=121&OPER_NAME=UNITED+AIRLINES,+INC.

Thanks for bringing the name to the merger though. Much easier to say on the radio.
 
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AirMike

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Your comments describe the dishonesty and debauchery of your MEC since the merger started. Your MEC and your greedy pilot group out to screw every United pilot to gain an edge that you do not deserve. Your SH!THOLE airline would have went into CH-7 in February, March 2011 at the latest if CAL had not merged with UAL, we have Smiseck on record saying it in his testimony to Congress, and he said it in the Chicago Tribune.

I had to do a deep Google search to find a word that describes beyond GREED which personifies the likes of Pierce, Baron, Cook, you, and your pilot group. That word is Ravenousness, "overwhelming desire for more than one is not entitled to."

My hire date is 1/3/90, been able to hold the left seat of the 767 since May 2000 with the exception of the bumps that came in 2003-04, yet your MEC proposed to put me behind '97 hires. To make matters worse your list proposed stapling non-furloughs '97 and later on the bottom of your list, yet you have the nerve to say your list is fair, FY you mentally challenged AH!!!!!!!!!!!!

United historically has waited until the target acquisition went bankrupt then bought the remains at a fire-sale, why Tilton was in a yank to buy your CRAP airline with your CRAP Mis-Management until CAL went bankrupt is in beyond logic?

Now that we are stuck with CAL Mis-management, your GREEDY MEC, and GREEDY pilots like you, I have two consolations. Your Mis-management is going to bring down this whole airline into Bankruptcy, 2015 - 2106 at the latest, and you and your greedy pilot group are going to come along for the ride right along with the rest of us. I maintain that we will not see the fulfillment of this POS contract before concessions are shoved up our collective A$$ as Smiseck is already complaining out loud about rising costs. Second, I can't wait for the post ISL and the elections for the new MEC as we have the majority, and the word out is every one of our reps are pissed big time at the BS your MEC and MC pulled with the ISL, Pierce and very one of your management shill MEC committee members are going to get sent back to the line!!

Payback time is coming to you and your MEC, MF
 

Flopgut

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Your comments describe the dishonesty and debauchery of your MEC since the merger started. Your MEC and your greedy pilot group out to screw every United pilot to gain an edge that you do not deserve. Your SH!THOLE airline would have went into CH-7 in February, March 2011 at the latest if CAL had not merged with UAL, we have Smiseck on record saying it in his testimony to Congress, and he said it in the Chicago Tribune.

I had to do a deep Google search to find a word that describes beyond GREED which personifies the likes of Pierce, Baron, Cook, you, and your pilot group. That word is Ravenousness, "overwhelming desire for more than one is not entitled to."

My hire date is 1/3/90, been able to hold the left seat of the 767 since May 2000 with the exception of the bumps that came in 2003-04, yet your MEC proposed to put me behind '97 hires. To make matters worse your list proposed stapling non-furloughs '97 and later on the bottom of your list, yet you have the nerve to say your list is fair, FY you mentally challenged AH!!!!!!!!!!!!

United historically has waited until the target acquisition went bankrupt then bought the remains at a fire-sale, why Tilton was in a yank to buy your CRAP airline with your CRAP Mis-Management until CAL went bankrupt is in beyond logic?

Now that we are stuck with CAL Mis-management, your GREEDY MEC, and GREEDY pilots like you, I have two consolations. Your Mis-management is going to bring down this whole airline into Bankruptcy, 2015 - 2106 at the latest, and you and your greedy pilot group are going to come along for the ride right along with the rest of us. I maintain that we will not see the fulfillment of this POS contract before concessions are shoved up our collective A$$ as Smiseck is already complaining out loud about rising costs. Second, I can't wait for the post ISL and the elections for the new MEC as we have the majority, and the word out is every one of our reps are pissed big time at the BS your MEC and MC pulled with the ISL, Pierce and very one of your management shill MEC committee members are going to get sent back to the line!!

Payback time is coming to you and your MEC, MF

You say all that like you think it's going to come as a surprise to us. Let me let you in on a little secret: Not one of us isn't expecting this. We know how to get through mergers. The instant this became a "merger", when you signed the T&PA, and the fact that we are in a SLI process means we've already broken you guys. I know it's going to hurt you guys like hell, but you're going to have to honor a fair deal.
 

densoo

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...dishonesty and debauchery... greedy pilot... screw every United pilot... SH!THOLE airline... beyond GREED... Ravenousness... mentally challenged AH!!!!!!!!!!!!... your CRAP airline with your CRAP Mis-Management... GREEDY MEC, and GREEDY pilots like you... shoved up our collective A$$... management shill MEC... Payback time is coming... MF
Not sure what that's all about. LCAL may be stapled in the SLI and after LUAL takes over all LEC and MEC positions they may disenfranchise the 4500 LCAL pilots. Oh well. Mow the lawn, fire up the grill and move on. Doesn't change that the name "United" was a marketing decision and we'll always be under the CAL certificate, meaningless as that may be.
 
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flygirlqt

Legal Eagle
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I have been gone for almost 5 years but even back then NASA reports were outdated and not used vis a vis the ASAP program. I guess Pocono pilot is alive an well so don't bother feeding this troll.
 

rjacobs

You Still Suck
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I dont work for United or CAL, have no desire to work for the "unified" United, but I have been in both the CAL and UAL systems both prior and post merger. So a perspective of the outside looking in so to speak.

we have Smiseck on record saying it in his testimony to Congress, and he said it in the Chicago Tribune.

Never heard a politician lie to get what they want/need? Do you remember when DAL and NWA were trying to get merger approval from congress and they both miraculously posted ridiculous(like in the 10's of billions of $$) losses in the previous quarter? accounting tricks to "convince" congress they "needed" to merge or a real loss?


your CRAP airline with your CRAP Mis-Management until CAL went bankrupt is in beyond logic?

Now that we are stuck with CAL Mis-management, Your Mis-management is going to bring down this whole airline into Bankruptcy, 2015 - 2106 at the latest

This point I have an issue with. While I wont say CAL's management under Kellner was that great, and Smisek didnt have the solo reigns long enough to prove he did or did not know what was going on, I will say that UAL was the terribly managed company. Tilton was a guy who was brought in to navigate the BK of UAL, however after that he couldnt get out because the system he destroyed was now so terrible that no CEO would come to take his place. Finding somebody to merge with was his only way out IMO. I dont believe he was an airline CEO(not that any of the current guys are really airline guys either though to be fair).

The system that UAL created(and now CAL has inherited) is absolutely disgusting and is slowely making the once greatly managed CAL hubs into a nightmare. This is coming from the perspective of a UAX pilot turned COEX and back to UAX. The service we were provided under COEX in both the hubs and outstations was tremendous. The service we get under UAX at both the hubs and outstations is simply frightening how poor it is. That started under UAL, NOT CAL. From what I understand though is that the mainline flights get good service still so a lot of the guys I talk to are always shocked when I describe how ********************ty the service we get is. I also see agents giving the worst customer service I have ever seen. I rarely saw that under the straight CAL system and still in the ex CAL hubs its still fairly good, although not what it used to be.
 

list2002

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Got to read between the lines of Airmike. If you haven't got the joke yet oh well. No other United pilot is agreeing yet, which is smart. Because everything he writes is opposite. Swap carrier names and his arguments make much more sense. Sorry to spoil your troll Airmike, I was hoping for someone to bite. But it seems only sCAL guys/gals are falling for it.
The only truth I see of the sUAL takeover is it sure seems the flight ops, hiring, and training department are going that way... oh well, easier check rides.
 

densoo

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Payback time is coming to you and your MEC
Payback came and went. LUAL "won," LCAL lost. Now it's just waiting for BK. In 2009 Continental ranked 6th among all airlines, 2nd among the legacies. United was 13th, 6th and dead last among the legacies. Now we're dead last together.

http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1020&context=aqrr

Here's Why United Was Just Named America's Worst Airline
by Matt Brownell Jun 18th 2013 11:37AM


In a week that saw United Airlines (UAL) place dead last in a customer service ranking of the major airlines, a picture surfaced that gives some idea of how the airline earned that dubious distinction.

A member of travel forum FlyerTalk posted this picture, which he says he snapped in the lavatory of a United Airlines flight.

"Apparently, they ran out in one lav half-way home and couldn't bother to transfer a roll from another," writes the poster. As you can see, a member of the flight crew seems to have hacked together a holder out of duct tape and filled it with cocktail napkins -- which, appropriately enough, bear the slogan "Fly by the tips of your fingers."

And this was no short flight, either: He notes that this took place on a San Francisco-to-London trip. While having to use napkins as toilet paper isn't the end of the world, it's still hard to imagine an airline like JetBlue (JBLU) running out of toilet paper and having to resort to such college-dorm-style innovation.

It's that sort of lax approach to basic customer service that's led to United once again ranking dead last in the American Customer Service Index. The quarterly ranking of various consumer-facing industries and companies found that while the airline industry as a whole has slightly improved, it still rates poorly among consumers, with only TV and internet providers performing worse. And within the industry, there was United in dead last once again, with an aggregate score of 62 points out of 100. JetBlue and Southwest (LUV) led the category, scoring 83 and 81 points, respectively.

The index is compiled through thousands of phone and email surveys, and each company score is the product of 250 interviews.

Of course, United's problems don't begin and end with toilet paper. A recent ranking of airline performance that accounted for on-time arrivals, customer complaints and baggage handling likewise ranked the airline dead last.

We've reached out to the airline for comment and will update this article if we get a response.

Update (3:45 p.m. ET): A United spokesperson responds to the mishap:
"The aircraft ran low on toilet tissue and our crew improvised and provided customers with paper napkins. We apologize to our customers on this flight for the inconvenience and would like the opportunity to welcome them back."

As for the airline's poor customer-service ranking, the spokesperson says that United's operation performance has improved significantly since fall 2012 and that customer complaints are down this year.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/on/united-americas-worst-airline-no-toilet-paper/
 
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Azul

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Here is my question. United was merging with somebody. Either airways or cal. That was clear with Tilton. So I might buy the downsize argument, maybe. But heres my question, why would airways or cal pilots have to pay for a decision YOUR management made. This totally disregards the fact that Ual allowed it to happen via your scope clause. You guys voted it in. Not us. Why do we have to pay for that decision?
We had to take the same type of concessions at cal, but we hacked or work rules to the bone to save scope and the old farts pensions. Could have saved other items but, instead when they parked 67 737 we replaced them with guess what? Larger 737's cause they could not use e-jets. Any rational ual guys please explain.
 

eaglesview

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These arguments are comical. It does not matter what anyone thinks about the ISL on this forum. I fully believe that CO ran much better before the merger. So did UA. This management team has screwed up almost everything they have touched. I look forward to when the terms L-ual and L=cal are gone. What purpose do they serve now?

In other news......this just in....

On Tuesday, the UAL-MEC received a decision in the liability phase of the Transition and Process Agreement Section 4-A dispute (Profit Sharing).

As part of his award, Neutral Richard Bloch wrote:

The Transition Agreement was negotiated in contemplation of a potentially challenging and markedly sensitive process involving the melding and reordering of thousands of professional lives.

AWARD
The Company violated the TPA by entering into the Profit Sharing Agreement in question.

As requested by ALPA, Neutral Bloch has ordered that the issue be remanded back to the parties for consideration of remedy.
 

Flopgut

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I fully believe that CO ran much better before the merger. So did UA. This management team has screwed up almost everything they have touched.

Completely agree. Corporate day one, or whatever the management team proclaimed as the day of the official merger closing, that's when things fell apart for both airlines. This entire management team needs to be replaced.
 

fr8doggie

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So let me get this straight, I am a CAL 2006 hire that can hold 737 Capt and approx 68% on the wide body (787 FO) and my overall relative seniority is 67%. On the CAL proposal I will stay at approx 67% relative seniority. On the UAL proposal I would loose 18% relative seniority. Do you really think that is "fair"?? Why should my career take such a hit and the UAL pilots get a windfall gain in relative seniority? Do you really think that's fair??

Because you don't know how to spell 'lose'?
 

densoo

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On the UAL proposal I would loose 18% relative seniority. Why should my career take such a hit and the UAL pilots get a windfall gain in relative seniority?
Because you don't know how to spell 'lose'?
Does any pilot? Most didn't put English 101 high on their list of priorities, including me. That's why I don't proof read my posts very well.

A euphamism for furloughed? Do you know the origins of this term?

Regards,
fr8foggie
Origins? No. Spelling? Yes. "Euphemism."

You also might be aware that punctuation goes inside the quotation mark except in Britain.

Thanks. I went and looked it up after I received Scoreboard's "answer".

regards,
Fr8-

And people "lie" down while you "lay" an object down. For instance, "we'll find a place for you to lie down" but "we'll find a place to lay your suitcase down."

We don't frown upon it. We will fight you for the best spots to lay down, however.

Regards,
Fr8doggie

Also, when you use the word "if" the "be" verb that follows is subjunctive and therefore "were" not "was."

Wait, If I was to believe this I would be considered quite the fool.

An easy way to remember this is to recall the lyric from "Fiddler On The Roof"--"...If I were a rich man."

Well, that's all for today. For tomorrow please read pages 256-327 of Joseph Conrad's "Nostromo" and complete section 11 of the workbook.
 
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Azul

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Any UAL pilots care to respond to my post?

When they came to you for next round of concessions( ERP 2 I believe) , ie lets relax scope to 70 seats, did anybody ask this question? "well S**t , alot of our flying has been farmed out to express in the form of 50 seaters. This can't be a good idea, find the money somewhere else".

When they came to us asking for money we gave it to them alright, but not our jobs!! Scope was on the table and we took it off the table, simple as that.

Thats why most of us thought this POS should have been DOA, not cause we wanted your jobs... Now we have relaxed it even further, I guess we will see what happens at the next downturn. No wait we won't. They will take what they want because we will give it to em. Sad
 

eaglesview

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If you knew a little history you would already know how the 70 seaters got there. As for responding to the rest of your post, tell me what good getting into a pi$$ing match with an anonymous person on line does.
 
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