Rumor or Not? ASA 65 ERJ's

[TNPILOT]

Once again, the media gets it wrong (there's a huge suprise). CAL can only withdraw the flying, not the aircraft. Any other carrier that is awarded the flying, if that does occur, must supply their own a/c if xjt decides to keep the leases on the 69 planes. Exactly how many times does this fact need to be restated for people to GET it? It's getting real old and repetitive. Gotta love the media....fact checking seems to be a routine of the past.
.

I don't think it's a really a huge issue considering the number of 50 seaters in the desert. Also, I think CAL and the financial media are betting XJT can't find a reasonable place to put the ERJ's that we could take with us.

 

[ohplease!]

Once again, the media gets it wrong (there's a huge suprise). CAL can only withdraw the flying, not the aircraft. Any other carrier that is awarded the flying, if that does occur, must supply their own a/c if xjt decides to keep the leases on the 69 planes. Exactly how many times does this fact need to be restated for people to GET it? It's getting real old and repetitive. Gotta love the media....fact checking seems to be a routine of the past.



.

More than one media outlet has quoted CAL the same way on this issue, more than once. Is it possible you aren't being given the right info/answer?

 

[temcgrew]

You are not a whore if you keep the standards high by voting for a fair and industry leading contract. You must be willing to risk it all. If you are not willing to risk it all, and you are willing to take pay cuts and work rule cuts to get new flying when your company is making money left and right then you are a whore. It is not your job to bid on flying, nor is it your job to take concessions for growth. If managment wants new airplanes let them take the pay cuts to get them.

If you vote to take concessions for growth you are a whore. YOu are not a whore if your company aquires new airframes. whether they came from the factory or another company.
__________________

I'm saying this with the utmost respect: That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard!!

Industry leading contracts in the regional industry means when the contract is up, you might not get it back unless you take concessions. Last time I checked the "money" your company is making "left and right" is from the contract company. If you have that great industry leading contract and then you loose flying, your company wont be making money left and right.
Risk it all? NO WAY!! My family is more important to me than the greed that leads to "industry leading" contracts.

 

[FL990]

It is highly unlikely that XJET will hold on to the aircraft in the event that they lose the CAL flying. There have been suggestions on this board that XJET would park the planes and pay the leases before they would let CAL use the aircraft with another carrier. That would be an emotional response, no doubt, but mgmt does not think with pure emotion. They make business decisions.

If they find another place to fly the aircraft they will keep them. If they don't, then they will give them back and move on, but they aren't going to eat the leases out of pure spite. That would be stupid.

All of this is, of course, assuming that they do have the choice. No one seems to know for certain if they can retain the leases if CAL pulls the flying. I would think that CAL would have set up the lease so that they could retract the aircraft at there discresion...but like everyone else on this board, I don't know because I haven't read the lease.

 

[n6604f]

In no way is this thread a bash against Express Guys. Nor are we proud of taking anyones flying if it comes to that conclusion. Simple fact is CAL and Express did NOT come to an agreement and CAL put the flying out to bid. So how can that be any pilots fault?????? It is the continuation of the whipsawing that ALPA has allowed because the regionals are not thier bread and butter. Not to mention the sewer slurping scum management who has taken advantage of the weakness in the industry.

It really is interesting reading all the responses and every one's different perspectives. If you ask me I would prefer that we all have job security but in this capitalistic society we live in, there is no such thing as job security no matter what industry you work. It is not me against you or us against them, it is all of us together against management who continually make decisions(good or bad) that effect every single one of us. That is why we at ASA don't have a new contract, because we are not willing to settle for a sub par contract!!!!!

 

[TNPILOT]

All of this is, of course, assuming that they do have the choice. No one seems to know for certain if they can retain the leases if CAL pulls the flying. I would think that CAL would have set up the lease so that they could retract the aircraft at there discresion...but like everyone else on this board, I don't know because I haven't read the lease.

Just to put some facts out there. This quote is from the ExpressJet 2005 Annual Report which can be found at

http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/13/130/130007/items/189226/ExpressJet_05_AR.pdf

See page 15, 3rd paragraph down on the right side.

"On December 28, 2005, Continental notified us of its intent

to withdraw 69 aircraft from the capacity purchase agreement
beginning in December 2006 and ending in June 2007. Airlines
currently leases or subleases all of its existing aircraft from
Continental. The capacity purchase agreement gives us up to nine
months from the notice date to decide if we want to retain these
aircraft. We are currently evaluating whether or not we will do so."

So yes we can keep the airplanes.​

Maybe instead of speculating on this board people should get off their ass and do some research that might yield some logical and accurate conclusions. Our union is already talking to the company about potential new flying opportunities so don't be too sure that we will fail. Or maybe I should say too excited to see us fail as many, not all seem to be, in hopes of furthering their own ambitions. Why don't pilots hope to see a group with one of the best contracts out there succeed instead of hoping they don't? Why not try to attain something better instead of walking around all glassy eyed hoping for new airplanes with different paint and the same old substandard pay all at someone elses expense? Because if another carrier is awarded the CAL flying it's hardly growth, it's just flying being traded around to the lowest bidder at someone elses expense. Something tells me the flying we find will be something outside the normal line of thinking in the regional industry and we WILL find it.​

By the way before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, this was not meant to blame ASA, TSA, SkyW, or any other pilot group for my misfortune. Except perhaps Mesa. It's more just a complaint about the sad state of affairs the regional industry is in.​

 

[cobalt]

It is highly unlikely that XJET will hold on to the aircraft in the event that they lose the CAL flying.

source, or gut feeling?

All of this is, of course, assuming that they do have the choice. No one seems to know for certain if they can retain the leases if CAL pulls the flying. I would think that CAL would have set up the lease so that they could retract the aircraft at there discresion...but like everyone else on this board, I don't know because I haven't read the lease.

it is for certain. i think TNPILOT just put the info down.

 

[007]

If that is true then pm me their names and I will have a chat with them about professionalism. I was just annoyed by all the Coex pilots blaming ASA pilots for something we have no control over and I took it out on you. Sorry.

Chicken had his ID turned around.

 

[FL990]

Cobalt,

When i said it was highly unlikely that they will hold on to the aircraft if they lose the CAL flying, I was refering to holding the aircraft and parking them out of spite. That would be stupid...especially since the interest rate would increase on the aircraft by 200 basis points if they do decide to keep the airplanes (page 17 of the refered document, 3rd paragraph down on the left). This is CAL way of saying that they would prefer XJET NOT keep the aircraft.

TNPILOT,

Very good find on the document. It has lots of info on it that is useful in browsing. And to rebutt your statement, I am all about "logic and accurate conclusions." Which brings me to my next point which is your own double standard. Do you not work for less than CAL pilots? Does it make you a whore because you were willing to accept a contract that made it benificial for them to give aircraft to you instead of CAL? There will always be someone who make more and someone who makes less. You cannot fault a person for weighing priorities and saying that I am willing to do X job for X money as opposed to being in the unemployment line. What defines whore? We live in a capitalistic society where everything is given to the lowest bidder and many times, it is an all or nothing situation. It isn't personal. We aren't "HAPPY" that you might be losing aircraft. We are HAPPY that we might catch a break. It is unfortunate that it is at someone elses expense...BUT THAT IS ALWAYS THE CASE!!!! When someone gains, someone else always loses or has lost opportunity at the very least.

I think if this illustrates anything (the situation with XJET and CAL) it shows that mgmt is willing to do anything to keep costs down. After this, it can no longer be said that mgmt has never taken aircraft from one company and given them to another. When this is over, that will be a reality that the union can no longer ignore. But don't call me a whore because I want my company to succeed! I want what is best for SKYWEST INC. because that is who I work for and what is best for them is ultimately best for me. My concern is with the whipsaw between ASA and SKYWEST airlines. I am not concerned about your companies profitability....THAT IS CALLED BUSINESS!

Now in terms of pay....I am definitely NOT WILLING to vote for less than what I currently make. But if it is between that and packing up, moving again, finding another job which will be worse than the one I have....I will take what is voted on.

 

[Soverytired]

ASA? No. MESA . . . probably.

Sorry if this has been posted before. And no, I'm not saying it's right or wrong or good or bad . . . just that it IS. We'll probably know in a week or so.

Bottom line of article below . . . "Mesa Airlines, one of the largest regional carriers, is viewed as the frontrunner to take on the additional Continental business, according to people close to the talks. Mesa, which recently expanded its flying for Delta Air Lines, declined to comment though confirmed it had bid for the Continental and Northwest contracts."

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http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12086718/#storyContinued

Northwest to launch regional carrier in June
By Doug Cameron in Chicago
http://media.msnbc.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Sources/sourceFiTimes.gif Updated: 3:12 a.m. ET March 31, 2006

Northwest Airlines confirmed on Thursday that it planned to launch a new standalone subsidiary in June using regional jets flown by pilots currently on furlough.
The new unit, dubbed Compass Airlines, is a scaled-down version of Northwest's original plan to outsource much of its short-haul domestic flying, a move dropped after fierce opposition from pilots.
Story continues below ↓

The disclosure comes amid a series of beauty contests by US carriers seeking new contracts from the independent regional airlines which handle much of their shorthaul routes.
Northwest has asked its regional partners, Mesaba Airlines and Pinnacle Airlines, to rebid for their business. Continental Airlines could announce a replacement for the operator it plans to withdraw from ExpressJet as soon as next week, according to people close to the discussions.
The Houston-based carrier said in January that it would withdraw 69 of the 274 Embraer aircraft which it subleases to ExpressJet after the two failed to agree on new contract terms.
Continental and other major carriers have enjoyed a relatively harmonious relationship with the regional carriers in recent years, but the pressure to cut costs has created strains.
The large carriers typically control the aircraft and cover fuel costs, but subcontract the flying to take advantage of the lower labour costs available at the regionals, who have remained profitable through the industry downturn.
Mesa Airlines, one of the largest regional carriers, is viewed as the frontrunner to take on the additional Continental business, according to people close to the talks. Mesa, which recently expanded its flying for Delta Air Lines, declined to comment though confirmed it had bid for the Continental and Northwest contracts.
Phoenix-based Mesa's rapid expansion also saw it make abortive bids for Independence Air, a Washington-based low-cost carrier which folded in January.
Northwest has acquired the failed airline's operating licence in an effort to speed up the regulatory approval of Compass. Northwest said in a regulatory filing that it would make a decision next month on the Compass fleet between the Bombardier CRJ-900 and the Embraer EMB-175.
The inaugural service in June will be with a single aircraft.
"The expansion of Northwest's regional flying through the proposed Compass Airlines operation is an essential part of Northwest's restructuring plan," it said in a statement.
Mesa has since turned its attention to the fast-growing Hawaiian market with the launch in June of intra-island services through a new unit called go!, sparking a fare war with the two incumbents, Hawaiian Airlines and Aloha Airlines, which have both emerged as from bankruptcy protection.
Curiously, both Mesa and Northwest have chosen failed or discontinued brands for their new units. EasyJet, the UK-based low-cost carrier, acquired the British Airways-offshoot Go in 2002. Compass Airlines was a twice-failed new entrant in the Australian market which finally liquidated in 1993.
Copyright The Financial Times Ltd. All rights reserved

 

[Superpilot92]

Has anyone posted the letter from our Union stating the negotiations between our union and our MGMT underway as we speak about additional flying? I dont have the blastmail anymore i dont think or i would post it.

Also on a side note, we are the only carrier that flys the XRs and you can pretty much bet the 44 XRs wont be handed over even if we do lose the flying, MGMT has said that the XRs are our Bread and Butter airplanes and while there may be 69 CRJ200 sitting in the desert they dont have the range and capability the XR does. just food for thought

 

[TNPILOT]

Cobalt,

When i said it was highly unlikely that they will hold on to the aircraft if they lose the CAL flying, I was refering to holding the aircraft and parking them out of spite. That would be stupid...especially since the interest rate would increase on the aircraft by 200 basis points if they do decide to keep the airplanes (page 17 of the refered document, 3rd paragraph down on the left). This is CAL way of saying that they would prefer XJET NOT keep the aircraft.

TNPILOT,

Very good find on the document. It has lots of info on it that is useful in browsing. And to rebutt your statement, I am all about "logic and accurate conclusions." Which brings me to my next point which is your own double standard. Do you not work for less than CAL pilots? Does it make you a whore because you were willing to accept a contract that made it benificial for them to give aircraft to you instead of CAL? There will always be someone who make more and someone who makes less. You cannot fault a person for weighing priorities and saying that I am willing to do X job for X money as opposed to being in the unemployment line. What defines whore? We live in a capitalistic society where everything is given to the lowest bidder and many times, it is an all or nothing situation. It isn't personal. We aren't "HAPPY" that you might be losing aircraft. We are HAPPY that we might catch a break. It is unfortunate that it is at someone elses expense...BUT THAT IS ALWAYS THE CASE!!!! When someone gains, someone else always loses or has lost opportunity at the very least.

I think if this illustrates anything (the situation with XJET and CAL) it shows that mgmt is willing to do anything to keep costs down. After this, it can no longer be said that mgmt has never taken aircraft from one company and given them to another. When this is over, that will be a reality that the union can no longer ignore. But don't call me a whore because I want my company to succeed! I want what is best for SKYWEST INC. because that is who I work for and what is best for them is ultimately best for me. My concern is with the whipsaw between ASA and SKYWEST airlines. I am not concerned about your companies profitability....THAT IS CALLED BUSINESS!

Now in terms of pay....I am definitely NOT WILLING to vote for less than what I currently make. But if it is between that and packing up, moving again, finding another job which will be worse than the one I have....I will take what is voted on.

Easy there big guy I never called you a whore. In fact I agree with most of your statements until the last paragraph. So you're saying you are willing to work for less! Getting furloughed should not be considered the end of the world. Most of us with a college education can make the same if not more doing just about anything while on furlough. What is far worse is taking pay cut after pay cut in order to save a few $20k/yr jobs and watching this industry dig deeper and deeper into a hole. But god forbid someone do something else for a few years other than fly airplanes. I find it pathetic that flying airplanes is so important to some people that they will do it for just about anything. Oh yeah, and thanks to Skywest we have a single pay rate for 50 and 70 seaters.

 

[BoilerUP]

I've got to unsubscribe from this thread.

This is all SPECULATION AND RUMORS about ASA (or TSA, or Mesa, or Chautauqua, or Pinnacle, or ______) possibly maybe getting XJT's flying, and you guys are at each other's perverbial throats with razor blades. Management is sitting in their offices right now reading this crap and laughing at their good fortune, having turned us against each other beyond their wildest dreams.

 

[FL990]

Easy there big guy I never called you a whore. In fact I agree with most of your statements until the last paragraph. So you're saying you are willing to work for less! Getting furloughed should not be considered the end of the world. Most of us with a college education can make the same if not more doing just about anything while on furlough. What is far worse is taking pay cut after pay cut in order to save a few $20k/yr jobs and watching this industry dig deeper and deeper into a hole. But god forbid someone do something else for a few years other than fly airplanes. I find it pathetic that flying airplanes is so important to some people that they will do it for just about anything. Oh yeah, and thanks to Skywest we have a single pay rate for 50 and 70 seaters.

Yes, I am saying that if it is between furloughed to find a worse job and working for what I am making now, i will take what i am making now. Keep in mind that THE OPENER was a cut on the 70, NO CUT on the 50 with no COLA. Once negotiations are finished, even if we take a slight hourly cut on the 70, raise on the 50 plus COLA, and get profit sharing plus trip rigs...nothing wrong with that for me. Heck, after the profit sharing and trip rigs, the cut on the 70 might even wash. I would take that. They are NOT trying to cut the 50 pay. I have been furloughed before...its no fun. And the longer you are out of the industry, the more difficult it is to get back in. I like my job. And NO, I am not a low time bottom feeder who has wet dreams at night over "shiny new jets." i have been in the industry for quite a while now. I also have a very good degree from a major university in something other than aviation, so I am very aware of my options. i just don't want to exercise them. I like what I do.

 

[BankAccount=0$]

This whole thread is about as useful as pissing into the wind. The issue here is not WHO is going to get the flying for CAL that is being reduced from XJT. The issue is at what cost are they getting the flying? It's obvious that CAL is looking for a rate so low that XJT is unwilling to agree to flying for it. I'm sure ExpressJet's management had run the numbers with all the real time available data to come up with their best and final offer to CAL. If the largest operator of ERJ aircraft in the world who are currently doing the flying for the RFP seeking company can't come up with an acceptable bid for the flying and make it worthwhile to do, then what outside organization will. If someother regional can manage to ramp up another new program for CAL and get the financing to add aircraft (as I'm fairly certain that XJT will be retaining the 69 airframes), without asking for concessions from their respective employee groups I will be very impressed.

Keep in mind that XJT is a pretty large operation that is extremely well managed. It is also a company who did not approach the employee groups looking for concessions to retain the flying. With that in mind I'm guessing that there has been some plan for quite awhile about what was going to happen if XJT had their CAL flying reduced in 2007. ExpressJet Holdings has made some industry related, but not airline specific purchases in the past couple of years that only strengthen our balance sheet. We also offer contract MX and training on the ERJ's which is to my knowledge unique to the regional industry.

If I were allowed to peer into the magic crystal ball that apparently only guys in the training center or "Senior" captains get to look into I'd bet I'd see XJT lose the 25% of flying for CAL, but keep the XRJ's and possibly the rest of the 69 too. These aircraft would be split between ExpressJet Europe, and a stand alone ExpressJet airlines here in the states doing business for it's self. And before all of you Independence flag wavers jump all over it, If Flyi still had 200 aircraft flying for UAL when they decided to go it alone do you think the outcome would have been the same. And for the record I know the situation is different, but XJT has 75% of it's airline revenue coming in on a fixed contract for quite some time. This would allow it more time to find and exploit the specific markets where it will make the most revenue per flight, a lot like how the LCC do business.

In the end my date of hire will most likely not save me from a furlough should it come down to that, but I have faith that XJT's management will drive us through this and only make the company stronger and better for the future.

 

[Superpilot92]

This whole thread is about as useful as pissing into the wind. The issue here is not WHO is going to get the flying for CAL that is being reduced from XJT. The issue is at what cost are they getting the flying? It's obvious that CAL is looking for a rate so low that XJT is unwilling to agree to flying for it. I'm sure ExpressJet's management had run the numbers with all the real time available data to come up with their best and final offer to CAL. If the largest operator of ERJ aircraft in the world who are currently doing the flying for the RFP seeking company can't come up with an acceptable bid for the flying and make it worthwhile to do, then what outside organization will. If someother regional can manage to ramp up another new program for CAL and get the financing to add aircraft (as I'm fairly certain that XJT will be retaining the 69 airframes), without asking for concessions from their respective employee groups I will be very impressed.

Keep in mind that XJT is a pretty large operation that is extremely well managed. It is also a company who did not approach the employee groups looking for concessions to retain the flying. With that in mind I'm guessing that there has been some plan for quite awhile about what was going to happen if XJT had their CAL flying reduced in 2007. ExpressJet Holdings has made some industry related, but not airline specific purchases in the past couple of years that only strengthen our balance sheet. We also offer contract MX and training on the ERJ's which is to my knowledge unique to the regional industry.

If I were allowed to peer into the magic crystal ball that apparently only guys in the training center or "Senior" captains get to look into I'd bet I'd see XJT lose the 25% of flying for CAL, but keep the XRJ's and possibly the rest of the 69 too. These aircraft would be split between ExpressJet Europe, and a stand alone ExpressJet airlines here in the states doing business for it's self. And before all of you Independence flag wavers jump all over it, If Flyi still had 200 aircraft flying for UAL when they decided to go it alone do you think the outcome would have been the same. And for the record I know the situation is different, but XJT has 75% of it's airline revenue coming in on a fixed contract for quite some time. This would allow it more time to find and exploit the specific markets where it will make the most revenue per flight, a lot like how the LCC do business.

In the end my date of hire will most likely not save me from a furlough should it come down to that, but I have faith that XJT's management will drive us through this and only make the company stronger and better for the future.

Exactly my thoughts, good post.

 

[urpi]

well, I heard from good source that the 69 jungle jets from conti are going to mesa. so sad

 

[hbrow15]

Cobalt,

When i said it was highly unlikely that they will hold on to the aircraft if they lose the CAL flying, I was refering to holding the aircraft and parking them out of spite. That would be stupid

Stupid maybe....but you certainly dont know Jim Ream very well....


Superpilot I do still have a copy of the balstmail from the union about new flying...I'm just reluctant to post it here, what would really be the point. As bank acoount zero said this is getting pointless

 

[temcgrew]

well, I heard from good source that the 69 jungle jets from conti are going to mesa. so sad

I just go a PM from j.o. that said mesa turned it down because they didn't want to be known as a whore airline.

 

[hbrow15]

Cobalt,

You cannot fault a person for weighing priorities and saying that I am willing to do X job for X money as opposed to being in the unemployment line. What defines whore? We live in a capitalistic society where everything is given to the lowest bidder and many times, it is an all or nothing situation. It isn't personal. We aren't "HAPPY" that you might be losing aircraft. We are HAPPY that we might catch a break. It is unfortunate that it is at someone elses expense...BUT THAT IS ALWAYS THE CASE!!!! When someone gains, someone else always loses or has lost opportunity at the very least.

I think if this illustrates anything (the situation with XJET and CAL) it shows that mgmt is willing to do anything to keep costs down. After this, it can no longer be said that mgmt has never taken aircraft from one company and given them to another. When this is over, that will be a reality that the union can no longer ignore. But don't call me a whore because I want my company to succeed! I want what is best for SKYWEST INC. because that is who I work for and what is best for them is ultimately best for me. My concern is with the whipsaw between ASA and SKYWEST airlines. I am not concerned about your companies profitability....THAT IS CALLED BUSINESS!

FL990
I actually agree with most of what you said and I dont neccesarily disagree with this part that I have taken out, but I am curious as to how you would react if the SKYWEST pilot group made a similar statement about what was best for them. If for some reason the company decides to merge both company's and the Skywest pilot groups decides what's best for them would be to staple ASA to the bottom of the list since that is obviously what best for them, and since the are not ALPA and there is no merger guidelines as there are for two ALPA carries they could do it just like American did with TWA. Again I'm not saying I dissagree with you looking out for what's best for you and your company, just curious

 

[Superpilot92]

Stupid maybe....but you certainly dont know Jim Ream very well....


Superpilot I do still have a copy of the balstmail from the union about new flying...I'm just reluctant to post it here, what would really be the point. As bank acoount zero said this is getting pointless

Actually i found it as well i decided not to post it just because its company info and i just assume wait as well. when the announcement is made then we can discuss what the future holds.