RSVM for USA, Cherry, and Ameristar

[TX_DFW]

Does any body working for a On demand operator, know what their company is planning on doing with the aircraft. I have heard many rumors about all of the Non compliant airplanes out there. I would just like to get an idea about job stability come January.

 

[Xfr8dog]

At UsaJet they tell us that all our falcons will be compliant. However i havent seen any steps taken as of yet. Of course that means nothing seeing as im usually the second to last to know anything! : )

 

[falcondriver]

The normal procedure at Cherry is wait till the last minute and panic.
FD

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

USA Jet has been RVSMing their DC-9s for a while. 2 Falcons are currently in a hanger getting RVSM'd. Various rumours have been floating around, but it sounds like all the Falcons that have a cooperating autopilot will be RVSM'd.

I talked 2 the President of Cherry about a year ago. He said they were going to RVSM their planes.

It will be interesting to see how RVSM affects everybody. I've read that most operators of older aircraft are taking a wait and see attitude.

I think that they'll find out it's a disaster, and then everyone will immediately try to RVSM their airplanes, which means the shops will be overwhelmed and a lot of owners will be kicking themselves.

Cliff
DTW

 

[Xfr8dog]

Youre probably right about the competition AtpCliff. Which may be really good news for us...
Official sources just told me that 827AA is in the shop now. which means you'll be the next to be told!

and stop using my handle to post!

 

[Cowboypilot]

Where can I find "official" info on climbing rough RSVM? Is this a true rumor?

 

[Xfr8dog]

"Climbing rough" ? What do you mean?

 

[LearDriver]

Climbing Through

Getting permission to climb through RVSM airspace seems to be what my company is planning / hoping we will be able to do..... Soooo... as I understand it - that means we will have to be at 410 and 430..... ATC will love us when we flame one at 430 and need to come back down to the through the airspace....Not to mention the fact that any time we can't get the permission to climb up above the airspace we will have to make at least one extra fuel stop, and take a huge hit on profit. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see this working very well.

 

[Xfr8dog]

I have to agree with you, at the very least you'll end up losing alot of trips to USAJet and others who are compliant due to the amount you'll have to bid to make a profit..
Are you with Cherry or Ameristar? whoever it is, i hope for your sakes that they do actually go through with the mods. I know Ameristar often already operates on very slim profit margins.

 

[Wiggums]

I heard that supposedly Ameristar's Lears will be RVSM compliant. Also, they are still upgrading captians and cross training FOs in the thing, and there is no way Tom would waste the money doing so if the fleet was going to be grounded. I believe for climb-through you need to go from 290 to 410 in eight minutes, and level at 430 or 450. Works great with new motors, say, what is the number to order new CJ610s from GE?

Oh wait, nevermind.

Tom is a smart dude and I doubt he would let the competition get so far ahead after doing so well for the last few years.

 

[iaflyer]

RVSM

If an airplane isn't RVSM compliant, it doesn't have to be grounded. You can fly it below FL290 all day long. The problem is that for an airplane like a Lear, it cuts into your range something fierce. For a Falcon, it's not that bad. Still - it would might turn a max range non-stop into a fuel stop.

It's all about the money: it might be cheaper to fly the Lear lower/higher than to complete an RVSM kit on each aircraft, train the crews, and for MX to maintain the system.

We shall see. Even USA Jet is only doing RVSM on their Falcons where it's economically feasible. On some of them, the autopilot is not capable of meeting RVSM requirements. As I understand it, those airplanes won't be RVSM compliant.

iaflyer

 

[Dr. B]

Cherry recently passed the word to us that they will RVSM their aircraft, the Lears anyway. Take it with a grain (or many grains) of salt. Like some other operators though, no aircraft have been done yet.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I read a bunch on this RVSM stuff.

U R correct, that it is possible to climb through the RVSM altitudes.

HOWEVER, in congested airspace such as the East Coast, it may never be possible. In other places, it may be possible only certain times, depending on the airspace load.

I don't think it will happen a lot except out West.

Good luck w/ going without RVSM!!!

Cliff
LRD

 

[Wiggums]

Ok, it's five months later, and I'm wondering where all the on-demand 135s are at with RVSM. As far as I know this is the situation...

Royal - All Lears completed
USA Jet - 2 Falcons completed, the rest ???
Ameristar - 1 Lear completed, all Lears to be completed by Jan 20th, Falcons ???
Cherry - 2 Lears completed, the rest of the Falcons and Lears ???

Anyone carry to fill in some blanks?

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I think USAJet has about 8 Falcons RVSM'd, which I think is all that are practically able to be converted to RVSM.

CLiff
GRB

 

[LJDRVR]

Most of the passenger-carrying 135 operations out there have not done much. My former employer has not done a single conversion yet, and I think it all comes down to money. (Cost of the mod/not having the jet producing revenue while in shop.)

My understanding of DRVSM is that it's FL410 inclusive. Climb-through is at ATC's discretion, good luck. Quite frankly, I don't see how some of these operators are even remotely competetive.

Customer: "You do have some of the latest avionics for our safety, don't you?"

135 operator: Uhh...sure, our jets are equiped with state-of-the-art 1992 GPS navigation sets.

Customer: "Wow, sounds impressive! how about TCAS, GPWS, TAWS. RVSM, Datalink, FMS?"

135 operator: "We have a DVD player in back with miniature plasma screens..."

 

[leardrivr]

Cherry recently passed the word to us that they will RVSM their aircraft, the Lears anyway. Take it with a grain (or many grains) of salt. Like some other operators though, no aircraft have been done yet.

I was one of the first pilots to fly a rvsm certified lear. It is a 24B with no buckets (N876MC). It worked great! I also flew a 25B and a strait 24 with the same result. Maybe some of you have seen them out there. We had the first one finished around febuary of 04 I think. Anyway the company has completed seven or eight mods out of there fleet of Lear 20 series aircraft and they have been awarded a group certificate to sell and install the rvsm package to any one with a 20 series lear regardless of the wing you have i.e. dee howard, century III, softflight. I just spoke to one of the pilots there last night (I left to fly somewhere else) and he told me that none of the autopilots will maintain altitude within 100 feet anymore. They are just as worthless as they were before they rebuilt them and installed the cadc's and digital altimeters. It seems that old f100 analog autopilot just won't do it. Hand flying is not such a chior now with the new static system but without a reliable altitude holding capability I just don't see how this aircraft will be worth flying. It is hard enough to get a good climb up to 410-450 as it is now. Once rvsm kicks in forget it. You will be stuck in the mid twentys pushing your profits out the tail pipes.

 

[Wiggums]

It seems that old f100 analog autopilot just won't do it. Hand flying is not such a chior now with the new static system but without a reliable altitude holding capability I just don't see how this aircraft will be worth flying. It is hard enough to get a good climb up to 410-450 as it is now. Once rvsm kicks in forget it. You will be stuck in the mid twentys pushing your profits out the tail pipes.

I heard different, that with the new static system the autopilot altitude hold is rock solid. In the non-RVSMd aircraft I've flown I've seen some autopilots that worked great, so I know that when everything is setup correctly the original autopilot can do the job. Since rebuilding the autopilot is part of the mod I'm hoping that they all work well once they get back. Now that flying with an MELd autopilot is no longer an option the mx on them is going to have to be better.

 

[ultrarunner]

Getting permission to climb through RVSM airspace...that means we will have to be at 410 and 430.....

Nope...290 to 410 inclusive. You'll need to be at 430, and you're just not going to be able to count on at AT ALL.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Yes, the new static system is great. You can hand fly it with great precision now, but from the memo we recieved (AirNet) that when at cruise altitude you need to have the autopilot engaged. Is it a regulation no, but it stresses "should." I did talk to a Cherry Air pilot who said they had a Lear 24 RVSM'd. I'm curious about Bank Air, have any of their aircraft been equip'd?

 

[pilotyip]

Autopilot

Flight above FL 280 must be with an engaged functioning Autopilot. The Autopilot must be engaged for level using either an altitude pre-select or manual pitch inputs to the engaged Autopilot. Autopilot must maintain 65' of engaged altitude while in RVSM airspace. If the Autopilot fails, you must notify ATC and tell them you are not RVSM compliant. The rule reads you may momentarily turn off the Autopilot to trim the airplane. They may ask you to leave RVSM airspace. I understand the FAA will be keeping a national wide database on operators having problems in RVSM airspace and may elect deny RVSM access to repeat problem aircraft.

 

[Canucit]

i would imagine that for a little while (after jan 2005) it would be petty hard to fly thru rvsm airspace without rvsm compliance to go to FL430