RNAV question for ATC folks

[Typhoon1244]

I realize this is in most cases a moot point, but I'm curious...

Ten minutes after takeoff from DFW, when you tell me I'm cleared "direct Columbia," do you mean direct to the airport, or the Columbia VORTAC which is four miles southeast of the airport?

I realize that it doesn't make a tenth-of-a-degree's difference in course, but if the sh_t ever hits the fan and the FAA starts sifting through every single thing I was doing at the time, I'd sure like to know I was doing the right thing.

What's the official answer?

 

[TXCAP4228]

I always thought it was the navaid. I think if they're clearing you to the airport that has a name similar to the navaid they'll say "XYZ airport".

I couldn't find anything to substantiate this.... anyone?

 

[Andy Neill]

According to the Air Traffic COntrol Handbook 7110.65L in 4-4-1 dealing with Route Use, the format is to be along the lines of this:
( see http://pwp.007mundo.com/lina.aguilar/Regulacion/ )

PHRASEOLOGY -
DIRECT (fix/waypoint)

DIRECT TO THE (facility) (radial) (distance) FIX.
........

I saw no mention made nor examples given of clearances to airports. Therefore, I would concur with TXCAP4228 on this.

 

[SSDD]

I'm not ATC, but a while back there was a similar situation in Salt Lake, and the short answer is that it depends so you should verify it. We would get cleared direct Salt Lake and when we questioned the controllers, sometimes they would say the VOR, and sometimes they'd say the airport. Basically, by letter of agreement between the center and approach, center just wanted to get you in the neighborhood and hand you over to approach for radar vectors.

A couple of years ago they fixed the problem by changing the name of the VOR to Wasatch.

We also had a question with Omaha. Salt Lake Center would clear us direct Omaha. Our flight plan was OBH-KOMA, since the Omaha VOR (OVR) was not on our flight plan, I'd always go direct to the airport and never had a problem with it.

 

[LimoDriver]

I had a conversation in the cockpit the other day about that very thing. The VORTAC and the Airport we were cleared to were co-located, so it was a non issue, but neither of us really knew where we were really cleared to! I don't know the answer.

How about this one - what is the right thing to do?

I'm on an IFR flight plan, flying to a non-towered airport.

ATC: Report airport in sight.

ME: We have the airport in sight.

ATC: You are cleared for the visual approach. Report canceling IFR on this frequency or on the ground through FSS. Frequency change approved. Good day.

Question - Do I enter the VFR traffic pattern? 45 to downwind? Or, because I am still IFR (I have not cancelled IFR), do I just maneuver to align with the landing runway - a visual approach under IFR. I'm in a jet, landing at an airport with light planes in the pattern.

What is the right way to do this, and what is the safest way to do this?

 

[dsee8driver]

Similar...

How about this one - what is the right thing to do?

I'm on an IFR flight plan, flying to a non-towered airport.

ATC: Report airport in sight.

ME: We have the airport in sight.

ATC: You are cleared for the visual approach. Report canceling IFR on this frequency or on the ground through FSS. Frequency change approved. Good day.

Question - Do I enter the VFR traffic pattern? 45 to downwind? Or, because I am still IFR (I have not cancelled IFR), do I just maneuver to align with the landing runway - a visual approach under IFR. I'm in a jet, landing at an airport with light planes in the pattern.

What is the right way to do this, and what is the safest way to do this?

We often encounter this situation going into Laredo on Saturday evenings, arriving after tower closes. Approach lines us up for a straight in final and will ask you when you have the field in sight. As soon as you say you do they clear you for a visual. We just keep on trucking straight in. Keep in mind the NFP had the CTAF tuned in and monitoring for quite a while and making position reports.

 

[TXCAP4228]

I called the local FSDO and the guy I talked to said he didn't know. He said ask ATC.

That's what I get for asking. At least I didn't give him my name.

I'll bet that ATC doesn't care and never thought about it.

Limo, since I don't fly jets I'm not qualified to answer you but... why not enter the traffic patern? Since when does being IFR mean you don't have to see and avoid?? That's the reason for the traffic pattern.

 

[mar]

Cleared direct to the traffic pattern

When I'm cleared direct to XYZ I just assume it's the VOR but in my readback I'll say, "...direct XYZ VOR..." to let ATC know that's what I understand.

I figure (and you know what happens when you figure something) if he meant the airport then he'll correct me--and the next controller is just gonna change it anyway...

When cleared for the visual, good operating practice says that you should enter a VFR traffic pattern. The AIM is the document at work here (though, as we all know it's not regulatory). If you had a fed on board giving an enroute you would just open a can of worms by barging your way into the traffic pattern with no attempt to merge with the flow of traffic.

That said: Straight in approaches are perfectly acceptable in large turbojet airplanes as long as they are established (and *stablilized*) at least 5 miles out.

Why 5 miles? Because it roughly corresponds to the distance of an instrument approach and with the proper radio calls how could any inspector bust you for executing a stablized, visual straight in?

Some pilots refuse visual straight in's because an Alaska Airlines crew got busted in Kotzebue for turning a 2-mile dogleg to final. The FAA felt that for the speed and size of the 737 a 2-mile final was not appropriate.

Stick with 5 or 6 miles and some good position reports and you should be fine.

Fly safe.

 

[501261]

I had a conversation in the cockpit the other day about that very thing. The VORTAC and the Airport we were cleared to were co-located, so it was a non issue, but neither of us really knew where we were really cleared to! I don't know the answer.

How about this one - what is the right thing to do?

I'm on an IFR flight plan, flying to a non-towered airport.

ATC: Report airport in sight.

ME: We have the airport in sight.

ATC: You are cleared for the visual approach. Report canceling IFR on this frequency or on the ground through FSS. Frequency change approved. Good day.

Question - Do I enter the VFR traffic pattern? 45 to downwind? Or, because I am still IFR (I have not cancelled IFR), do I just maneuver to align with the landing runway - a visual approach under IFR. I'm in a jet, landing at an airport with light planes in the pattern.

What is the right way to do this, and what is the safest way to do this?

Limodriver, I started a new threat to address this issue at pn the General board as "IFR into uncontrolled field."

 

[dsee8driver]

No pattern needed..

If you are on an IFR flight Plan and approach controller has you lined up on a 20 mile final and he asks you to report the field in sight, I don't think he expects you to enter a 45 downwind when you report the field in sight and he clears you for a visual.

 

[501261]

Re: No pattern needed..

If you are on an IFR flight Plan and approach controller has you lined up on a 20 mile final and he asks you to report the field in sight, I don't think he expects you to enter a 45 downwind when you report the field in sight and he clears you for a visual.

Be careful doing this! Approach generally doesn't "own" the airspace(if it's class E or G)! If there's no tower you need to see and avoid and abide by 91.113. All approach does is separate you from other IFR traffic, when he clears you for a visual- that means there is no other IFR traffic between you and the airport. Approach generally has no control over all those little bugsmashers in the pattern.

One nice thing about going straight in though is that once you turn FINAL, you have right of way over other traffic in the pattern. FAR 91.113(g) states aircraft on FINAL have right of way over other aircraft in flight or in surface.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Since the thread is already hijacked...

One nice thing about going straight in though is that once you turn FINAL, you have right of way over other traffic in the pattern. FAR 91.113(g) states aircraft on FINAL have right of way over other aircraft in flight or in surface.

Later in the same paragraph, it says that if two aircraft are approaching the lower aircraft has the right of way. I read that to mean that if I am established in the pattern and am lower than you then I have the right of way. Especially if your coming out of a couple of thousand feet when I am 700AGL on downwind or base.

But what do I know...?

 

[501261]

Since the thread is already hijacked...


Later in the same paragraph, it says that if two aircraft are approaching the lower aircraft has the right of way. I read that to mean that if I am established in the pattern and am lower than you then I have the right of way. Especially if your coming out of a couple of thousand feet when I am 700AGL on downwind or base.

But what do I know...?

Not really, the FAR's don't really define the traffic pattern pattern. The way I interpret FAR 91.113 is 1., that lower traffic (pardon I don't have the FAR's in front of me so I'm paraphasing) inbound has the right of way (i.e. if two aircraft are 5 miles out or on downwind, the one at a lower altitude has the right of way). 2., Aircraft ON FINAL have the right of way over other people in the pattern 3., the lowest person on final has the right of way.

The important thing to remember, and their is an NTSB judgement on this, is that traffic on FINAL has the right of way over people in the pattern. There is no requirement to fly a pattern (though one is recommended), and the is no definition of FINAL!

 

[ATCER]

Hey... I haven't checked the board in about a week so I missed this post. As far as I know you are cleared to the Navaid. We don't clear A/C to just the airport, your clearance is to a fix, Navaid, etc. An airport is not part of the airway system as far as I know.

Continue to do things as you are and if your not sure ask the controller...

 

[flydog]

The AIM defines standard traffic patterns. The AIM has been interpeted by the NTSB and FAA as being regulatory in nature with respect to enforcement cases. You can draw your own conclusions as to what the requirements are when you are cleared for a visual.

Usually the tower or approach will clear you for a right base entry or some type of pattern entry. Sometimes they just clear you for the visual and leave the pattern up to you.

At that point you can follow the AIM or make up your own rules. If you wack a 172 on final you bet the contributing cause will be failure to comply with standard traffic pattern procedures set forth in the AIM

I usually fly the full pattern at a non-towered airport. If the airport has a control tower you will usually get sequencing instructions which provide separation.